| Given that GalCiv (base game certainly) has random maps, the odds of two games having identical maps are about zero. |
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i would assume it's conclusive cause every planet is in the exact same place from game to game to game, and that is definetly concrete proof.
        
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yes i see, that's quite differen't from actually thinking human error on there part, but i would have to say i couldn't respect there intelligence if they didn't check it that way  
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i think they mean some of the staff for this site, that would be i think like pat ford, cari elf, dw...at least i think so...
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wot happens if you save a series of random maps, and just use them for games? ie you always start a game on a pregenerated position that effectively fixes the planets, anomolies, enemies etc. it would be a different game, but would it look 'identical'?
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$$_(*%)@$&%!
Well, that is quite a shock! I can't, and won't believe that Loth was cheating. Formula-izing and cheesing, yes, but not cheating.
I have a feeling that the details of exactly how Stardock determines what constitutes a cheat game will never be completly disclosed, as that would help people who really did want to cheat. While Stardock's efforts to police the meta are to be applauded, that puts those accused in a bind. I really hope that it is a case of too many "similar" games, or perhaps simply a randomly created duplicate starting situation in one pair of games. The two players removed had some of the highest game counts in the meta, so if a staticial fluke were to happen, it would most likely happen to them. Maybe it was simply a case of lightning striking the same place twice.
What worries me perhaps just as much is the statement Brad made about removing players over cheese. If a given tactic is declared out of bounds, will players be removed for using it before the fact? If so, I have several unopened games waiting for me to install on my PC.
     
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#13659
by Senator Drengin - 6/19/2004 9:17:59 AM
| wot happens if you save a series of random maps, and just use them for games? ie you always start a game on a pregenerated position that effectively fixes the planets, anomolies, enemies etc. it would be a different game, but would it look 'identical'? |
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You can only submit a map once! Any more than that and you simply overwrite your previously submitted score. And as for the games in question for the two players, the games that were 'flagged' had the exact same structure as each other. By this i mean they had the same line code for each game, all the anomalies were in the exact same position down to the last pixel, the stars were identical, the game structures were identical, the random events happened at precisley the same instant, and turn by turn nothing differred in the code. This cannot be done other than by altering the id of a previously submitted game. There was no room for human error on stardocks side, the evidence spoke for itself.
However i believe that if the players can provide a viable reason for the above their scores will be returned. If they feel that they have a solid proof of this they should contact Pat Ford at stardock on pford@stardock.com.
[Message Edited]
      
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I know no one wants to believe lothmorg cheated, but the facts seem concrete, i just thought of something would it help if stardock created a demonstration of how they caught him cheating? such as downloadable media files or screenshots demonstrating exactly what they found between say two games, or lists of comparitive values between two games?
if that would help put this too rest perhaps we can all get together and make a request of stardock to do that so as to help ease the metaverse that this isn't just a witch hunt gone horribly wrong? 
[Message Edited]
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I cannot believe they did not play the games. Loth had a laptop just for galciv he took with him every where even on trips. He may have figured out how to cheese the same great map but I cannot believe he did not play the games.
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okay this is what i understand is how this cheating occures:
say there are 30 planets on the map all differen't names each map they appear in the same place, all the resources appear in the same places, the anomalies all appear in the exact same places the ai made the exact same decisions, all the ships moved the exact same places etc and the only thing that is differen't is something like the game ID, and even if one could play the same map perfectly the same way each and every time, the AI for galciv is so good that the ai's vary in the way they play so it would end up differently.
someone correct me if i'm mistaken in my interrpretation.
but i think most of the controversy is half-confusion over how the cheating was determined, and half-loyalty to a dear friend.
again maybe a demonstration would help?
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#13674
by Citizen Weyrleader - 6/19/2004 5:15:11 PM
| This is all to much. Weyr help |
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I think that Frogboy said that the games was the same, but he did not elaborate on what was the same. In another post he said that the "score" was the same and the context did not imply that this was the score you get for playing, i.e. 60K, but a score that identified the game and each game would be different. I also infered that this was not the game ID, which is supposed to be different for each game, and in the case for Loth, the games all had different IDs. This is what Stardock does not know, i.e., how did Loth use the same game and cause the ID to change without hacking the saved game? I maintain that Loth did not hack the game, but may have discovered a cheese that when used caused the game ID to change and the Meta to accept the game again. I don't think I would call that cheating, but he may have exploited a hole in the code.
Speaking of holes in codes, Stardock would be much better off fixing bad code than throwing people off the Meta for exploiting a bug in their code. I just found a bug, again, that shows up when you play a custom map, the next games will not submit because the Meta thinks you are submitting an unauthorized custom map or scenario. Last time I had to reload the game to fix and I will try that again in a few minutes. CariElf could not read the game because of my use of MODS. Now that raises another question, if Loth used Mods, and I think he did, then if CariElf could not tell me why my game would not submit, how in h*ll did someone who is only a monitor do so?
   
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