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Inter-Empire Political Discussion Thread
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| So does God discriminate homosexuals, the answer is no. Does God hate homosexuality the answer is yes. |
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How can you say this? Since you are so religious Renegade, then I will take a page from your perspective. GOD CREATED HOMOSEXUALITY. Why would the Almighty hate anything he created? There is a reason for that group to be there, because GOD WANTED IT TO BE THERE. I don't see homosexuals being punished in any way for being homosexual, except for their oppression, which if we are to be rid of, then that would not exist. If God really hates homosexuality, why does he not wipe it from the face of the Earth, and also, if he hates it, then expect the group to be permantly discrimiated against, which I think is wrong.
        
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| My opinion: God doesn't make junk, and God doesn't hate anything. I find it hard to believe that God would create a person who is gay (it is not a choice)and then expect them to go against their grain their entire life. Society has placed that judgement, not God. Jesus taught us to love one another. I also find it hard to believe Jesus would be against any kind of love. He also taught us we are not the ones to judge one another. |
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bravo kazz, i think your the first christian that i know to actually be of that oppinion.
and that sort of goes along with what abt said earlier:
We can also turn this part of the argument around, if the person is willing to believe that it is genetic, which I have not found. If it is genetic, then God has decided to do it, therefore there is a reason, and we should not denounce them for it.
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| How can you say this? Since you are so religious Renegade, then I will take a page from your perspective. GOD CREATED HOMOSEXUALITY. Why would the Almighty hate anything he created? There is a reason for that group to be there, because GOD WANTED IT TO BE THERE. I don't see homosexuals being punished in any way for being homosexual, except for their oppression, which if we are to be rid of, then that would not exist. If God really hates homosexuality, why does he not wipe it from the face of the Earth, and also, if he hates it, then expect the group to be permantly discrimiated against, which I think is wrong. |
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one thing, don't say it's because he works in mysterious ways either because that's just a way to justify it when you can't answer, it holds no real meaning.
the point is to think like your in a debate, quoting religous verse, you would very likely lose if your not in a christian school.
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| One last thing, and this may get deleted for its frankness. The whole notion we are here to bring new life into the world, and being gay doesn't support reproduction, there for it is a sin or wrong or whatever. How does a gay male person "get it up" with a female if there is no attraction? I imagine they would have to have "evil thoughts"...which is also wrong. So the notion one should act heterosexual seems absurd and that person would be lying to themselves and to the female...that doesn't seem right either. |
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kazz that was an excellent statement, though all this talk i hadn't thought of the importance of expressing oneself!
Another thing permeating the conversation earlier, from a christian perspective god had to have created homosexuals, if he didn't and it's perhaps something ingrained in the soul, then that's something beyond his control, isn't he supposed to be "omnipotent", and that stands to reason if he's not omnipotent as is claimed, then is it possible he's not omniscient as well? and finally if he's not omniscient, should his will decide the actions of millions? mull on that for a while.
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Well, I shouldn't go into the debaye, but here is my contribution.
If I recall correctly, in the Genesis, God has punished two cities for wicked behaviors: Sodom and gomorrah. And we see in the passage that male inhabitants want to have relations with the messengers God send to Loth. And the inhabitants were full of lust and don't cease to demand the same thing.
So what was wicked: homosexuality or the lust (a capital sin) of the inhabitants which prevent them to accept no as answer?
   
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| GOD CREATED HOMOSEXUALITY. |
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God didn't create homosexuality, homosexuality was introduced in the world as result of sin, it was created by mankind, no by God. But arguing with people that don't know Christ it is rather foolish. You see, I was in the other side of the fence also, and I also make mockery of God's word, and I also got invloved in all kind of sins, that will make your skin blush if I named them here. So save your time. Jesus said, the world will hate you for believeing in me, be of good cheer I have defeated the world.
Your responses are just a justification of why homosexuality is OK and how is OK to respect the right of the people, and they are just justifications to avoid the truth. There is only one truth God's. Everything else is just and argument of man trying to justify their sins.
But the Bible is very clear
In the end times man will give themselves to all sort of depravity, man will sleep with man, women with women, the majority of the church will fall after false teachings and false gospels, there will be many false prophets.
Another quote of the Bible reads
many shall be call but few will be choosen.
The end times is near and one day every knee shall bow before the LORD and then all these rejections and justifications will be shown before you and you will have to answer for your sins. My duty is to point you out the only way, and that is JESUS.
The choice is yours, but you are running out of time.
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| the majority of the church will fall after false teachings and false gospels, there will be many false prophets. |
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This quote makes me wonder: if we are ine the end times and if the majority of the church will fall after false teachings, this means that people who are in the mainstream of the church are in the error.
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Thank you Renegade for your comments. I do not intend with what I say to degrade anyone or any beliefs.
I'm sorry to say this, but I will not put faith into anything that makes me see a fellow man or woman to be of a lower stature for something not under their control.
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Do Christians Hate Homosexuality?
Pastor Jeff VanGoethem
Recent events have placed the issue of homosexuality and “gay rights” in the forefront of the news. This past summer the Supreme Court outlawed all anti-sodomy laws sparking widespread comment and debate. This led to a push to legalize homosexual marriage (which has been done by the courts in Canada) or at least provide for “civil unions” for homosexual couples. More debate ensued. Even President Bush weighed in on this one, stating that he believed marriage ought to be reserved for a man and woman, his comments obliquely implying that homosexuality was sinful.
Finally, a lot of talk was occasioned by the Episcopal Church’s appointment of an openly homosexual Bishop. This event displayed the wide breach in Christendom between those who hold to the inspiration and authority of the Bible and those who do not. A leading Episcopal Bishop who supported this appointment claimed that it was done in response to the Holy Spirit’s leading in the consensus of the church and that the church was not bound by an ancient text (the Bible)! Of course, such thinking is unacceptable for those who believe that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Does God the Holy Spirit contradict Himself?
Through all the talk and debate that these events have engendered, homosexual activists have frequently expressed their disappointment in Christian opposition to steps favoring the expansion of homosexual rights. Those who speak for the homosexual movement have been pleading that all they want is equality -- the same rights and opportunities as others. They do not want to be discriminated against because of their sexual preference. Therefore why are Christians against this? Shouldn’t Christians love and tolerate homosexuals? Isn’t this what Jesus would do? Doesn’t God love all people? These points have been made again and again.
So, are Christians wrong in their opposition to homosexuality, the further expansion of homosexual rights, and acceptance of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle? Do Christians hate homosexuals?
Many statements from the homosexual community accuse Christians (especially “conservative” Christians who still desire to follow the Bible) of being motivated in this debate by fear (homophobia), ignorance (bigotry), and hatred (intolerance). The suggestion is also advanced that beatings and murders of homosexuals can be linked to the rhetoric of Christian opposition.
But is this all there is to it? Or do Christians have deeper reasons for their opposition to homosexuality? Actually, Christian opposition to homosexuality is much more principled than the homosexual community may be willing to acknowledge. And this is why polls show that much of the American public is with Christians on a number of these issues. The arguments against encouraging homosexuality and granting additional rights are rooted in reason, principle and common sense. Yes, religious doctrine is involved, but there is much more to it than that.
Let’s begin first with the religious dimension of this. Many won’t agree with this argument but it is foundational for Bible believing Christians. Christians believe that morality descends from God. And how do we know what God’s moral code is? That would be the Bible. In our view, it is not a mere “ancient text,” it is God’s inspired Word. Its teachings reflect God’s will and message for humanity. And the moral code of God’s Word, the Bible, clearly opposes homosexuality. Many debate this, but any serious reading of scripture (that does not involve “selective reading”) will find obvious condemnation of homosexuality. Christians who oppose homosexuality are merely upholding what the Bible says. Therefore, the real issue that separates homosexuals and Christians, is not fear or hatred, it is the Bible.
Homosexuals and those who support them are forced to devise strained interpretations of the Bible or forced to argue against the Bible itself (this is the more honest approach). Yet, devout Christians have always believed the Bible to be the expression of God’s will for humanity. Christianity is, after all, a religion based in the claim to revelation, the idea that God has revealed Himself and His will in the propositions of Scripture. From this standpoint, homosexuality is a rejection of God and His will for humanity. This explains why Christians are unyielding on many of the moral issues of our time despite the prevailing moral relativism. But this point is admittedly based in religious dogma that many will not accept. Can more be said?
Let’s move on to a second point and talk about nature. Common sense and freshman anatomy tell us that two people of the same gender experiencing intimacy in a bedroom have the wrong equipment for the job. Homosexual intimacy is against nature’s design. It is therefore not surprising that it has proven to be an unhealthy lifestyle. A great deal of information is available on the prevalence of disease and untimely death among homosexuals. Do we really think it is the best interests of people and society to encourage this lifestyle?
The homosexual movement continues to assert that homosexuals have no choice in the question of their sexual orientation. And that what they do is just as normal as heterosexual intimacy. This flies in the face of all the evidence. Many, many homosexuals have left the lifestyle behind. Also, no reliable scientific proof has ever been advanced which definitively explains what the biological cause of homosexuality is. Is it a gene? Which gene? Is it the brain? Which part of the brain? If the cause is rooted in genetics, well then someone should tell us exactly what the root is. But no one has done this and no one can do this. Ask someone who puts forth this theory to explain exactly what the biological or physiological root is. There is no answer forthcoming.
So those who think that science has proven something in this matter have exchanged speculation for legitimate science. Let’s not believe in myths created by propaganda.
Actually, there is a body of evidence pointing to a much more sensible explanation for homosexuality. Its roots lie in (1) A failure to bond with a parent of the same gender, (2) Negative sexual experiences in childhood such as molestation, and (3) Low self esteem which leads to gender confusion. Anyone who has counseled with homosexuals can testify to this. These things were once considered treatable by counselors. The fact is they still are.
Thirdly, just a word to say about civilization. The ultimate test of any law or moral principle is to ask the question, “What would happen if everyone followed it?” What if everyone embraced homosexuality? Well, obviously, this would lead to the destruction of our civilization. The birthrate would decline so much that we would cease to exist or more likely, at some point, be conquered by our enemies because of our weakness. The fact is that homosexuals depend upon heterosexuality and marriage in a big way for the opportunity to pursue their lifestyle. The reverse is not true. Therefore this lifestyle should not be encouraged. Strong marriages and homes are what strengthen a nation. It is my opinion that older taboos like prohibiting homosexuals from role-model positions like teaching, coaching, scout leading and so forth were quite wise. The lifestyle should not be encouraged. It only serves to weaken us.
Fourth, we should also talk about the family. Since time immemorial the family has been the foundation of civilization. Common experience demonstrates the tremendous sacrifice, labor and effort it takes to properly civilize a child. We have long seen a connection between broken and dysfunctional homes and costly social ills like delinquency, crime, sociopathic behavior, depression, and maladjustment. Is it really wise for our society to embrace an utter novelty (homosexual “unions”) in terms of the definition of the family (two male “parents” or two female “parents”)? Doesn’t all the research and all common sense show that children have the best chance for a good life in a two parent male and female home? A mom and a dad? Do we really want to give homosexual parents sweeping new rights (historically unprecedented) such that they have all the protections and privileges of marriage and family? Is this wise?
We have to remember something. The homosexual movement will not be satisfied until it is granted rights equivalent to married people. By agreeing to this we will, as a culture, make a step that will lead to an explosion of the phenomenon of children being raised in homosexual households. Yet for centuries, in all cultures and places, heterosexual marriage has been the universal method of nurturing children. It offers children the protection, nurture and stability that other unions, relationships, and institutions do not.
Marriage needs to be protected. Not homosexual unions. Why don’t we put our energy into protecting marriage? Wouldn’t that be the better part of wisdom?
Do we really think it will be in the best interests of children to be raised in a home where both parents are of the same gender, the foundation of their relationship being an unnatural sexual relationship? Do we think that this will encourage proper character development? Will it teach them good morals and to always do the right thing? Will it give children proper self-esteem? Will it make them loyal and productive? Or will it diminish and confuse them? Could it not cause them difficult social problems? Will their sense of foundation and wholeness in life be the same as a child from a normal home? Will they feel alienated and isolated from others because of the situation of their homes?
Those who teach and counsel others in our society must retain the freedom to discourage people from this lifestyle – it is simply not in the best interests of children. The children become the victims.
Lastly, I would like to talk about hope. It is unfortunate that many practicing the homosexual lifestyle have placed their hopes for a good and happy life by sinking deeper roots into an enslaving lifestyle. This is not where true hope will be found. Many in the homosexual community have a false idea of God’s grace. They think that the idea that God is gracious (which is true) means that He approves of us no matter what we do (this is false). God is actually holy and judges sin (the commands against judging in the Bible do not preclude the necessity of making legitimate moral evaluation of behavior).
According to the biblical gospel, God’s grace in salvation and acceptance is found in a narrow way not a broad way. Acceptance by God comes through our repentance of our sins and faith in the sacrifice of God’s Son upon the cross. We have to accept that we are bad in order to become good. Then when we receive Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit cleanses us and indwells us. This is what brings deliverance from the slavery of sexual sin and all other sins. To find deliverance we have to come by the “narrow” way that Jesus talked about (Matt. 7:14). The broad way is a way to damnation. This is what Jesus taught. God does not accept us as we are. His Son went to the cross and bled and died because of what we are (all of us).
So a person in the homosexual lifestyle can find real, life-changing hope not in deepening the commitment to a sinful lifestyle. There is no hope or joy to be found when we willingly embrace a lifestyle opposed to the will of God. But hope will be found in the power of Jesus to change lives. Many in the homosexual community attribute the high rate of depression and suicide among homosexuals to the intolerance and persecution they experience. A better explanation may be the guilt, emptiness, self-loathing and loneliness, which often accompanies the homosexual lifestyle.
The Apostle Paul understood this. He wrote this to the Corinthian church, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, but your were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (1Cor. 6:9-11).” Two points can be made from this. First, homosexuality and other immoral practices are wholly inconsistent with God’s will, deeply sinful and worthy of judgment. Second, people caught in these lifestyles can be delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit when they yield completely to Christ, as were some in the Corinthian church, to which Paul directed this statement. The real hope for the homosexual is Christ, not additional and new rights. Christ came to be a friend to sinners and to set them free.
So these are the truths Bible-believing Christians are committed too. To ask us to accept and approve of homosexuality is to ask us to abandon the core realities of our faith. Not that we believe in the punishment or persecution of homosexuals. I have counseled homosexuals in my own study, within the walls of our church. I have treated them with tenderness and dignity. We do not want to punish them or persecute them.
But we do want to preach the gospel to them. It is our belief that they can find hope, peace and freedom in Christ. So, yes, we do tolerate homosexuality in this sense. But we do not and cannot ever accept it as God’s will, and therefore we oppose any steps that encourage it to be viewed as a normal and healthy lifestyle.
So yes, Christians oppose the homosexual lifestyle and are against any expansion of rights. But we do not hate homosexuals, we are not mindless bigots, and as people who love God and love our neighbor, we do not commit crimes against them. We merely want God’s best for them and are not afraid to say what that is. For that, it appears, they hate us.
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Christians do not consider anyone to be of lower level, that is a lie. We just point out what is right and what is wrong, I was on the other side, I became a Christian when I was 32 years old, after I had practiced black magic, vodoo rituals, santeria, psychic, palm reader, card reader, spiritism, and other things. So youare not talking to someone that was born in a church and became a Christian when I was a boy, I have walked this Earth in many directions, so I know in whom I have believed and I know that He is who He said He is.
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"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting."
Romans 1:26-28, NKJV
You see God didn't create HOMOSEXUALITY, it was a man's desire.
SIN= Disobedience, so do the math.
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| Your responses are just a justification of why homosexuality is OK and how is OK to respect the right of the people, and they are just justifications to avoid the truth. There is only one truth God's. Everything else is just and argument of man trying to justify their sins. |
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| The end times is near and one day every knee shall bow before the LORD and then all these rejections and justifications will be shown before you and you will have to answer for your sins. My duty is to point you out the only way, and that is JESUS. |
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and those unreasonable statements are why i don't like arguing with the devoutly religious, with both those statements not only are you not actually arguing the subject, your trying to impress your beliefs upon others.
I myself am not denying the truth, there IS no truth.you said that you used to mock gods word or whatever and used to do things that make your skin blush now you have found god, it's the exact opposite for me, so could i not also say the same to you...your just denying the truth that there is no god?
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What should Christians do about
Homosexuality?
"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting."
Romans 1:26-28, NKJV
Actually, I am very concerned about the general lack of knowledge in the church regarding the subject of homosexuality. Very few Christian teachers, even among the evangelicals, take a biblical stand on this issue. Some condemn all homosexuals, without any concern for their souls, and without any real biblical background for their heartless and ruthless persecution of homosexuals. In other words, they do not seem to acknowledge that all human beings are sinners, and that Jesus can save homosexual sinners like anyone else. Then there are those who go the other way, and endorse homosexuality as a natural and biological sexual orientation, which has neither a biblical nor a scientific basis. I have seen evangelicals tracts supporting the acceptance of homosexuality, saying it is not a sin. But it is a sin.
First, look at the cause for homosexuality. The Holy Spirit of God tells us why some have become homosexuals. In the above Scripture (Romans 1:26-28), it begins with the phrase, "for this reason," and continues with the phrase, "God gave them up to vile passions." Therefore, we know that whatever came before this Scripture gave us a clue to the reason for a person becoming a homosexual. And we also know that homosexuality has something to do with God abandoning them to the strong desires of the body and brain of flesh, which produce "vile passions."
In the preceding Scriptures, the reason for God giving homosexuals up to their "vile passions" is this: "Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things" (Romans 1:21-23, NKJV). The problem of homosexuality, and every other kind of immorality, was common in the city and empire of Rome. Paul saw why, because God revealed the reason for them falling to this perversion. Every human being has a spirit as well as a body and brain of flesh. Spiritually, every human being can see the character or attributes of God in what is made, in His creation. All know, in their hearts, that there is a God. And they also know what He is like. On top of this, everyone's heart inherited, from Adam and Eve, a basic understanding of good and evil. Yet their minds of flesh often deny these things, because the lusts and desires of their flesh are so strong. Therefore, they leave no room for the reality of God in their thoughts.
When they abandon all the reality clearly revealed in God's creation, without glorifying nor thanking God for what He has done, they become very unreal and twisted in their thoughts. Since they reject what their spirits know to be true and real, God may choose to completely abandon them to their own thoughts of their own flesh. So they fall into a deep darkness and a distorted perception of everything. Of course, when they invent their own "reality" in their own minds, they understand their own delusions much better than anyone else. After all, how can anyone who lives in reality understand their delusions, since those delusions have absolutely nothing to do with what is seen in the reality created by God? How can anyone get into their minds to see and understand their delusions? Only those who are willing to be "educated" in these delusions, who will share their delusion with them, can enter into this delusion. This is why propaganda is very important to the homosexual. Since, scientifically, all reality points to the fact that homosexuality is simply an addictive, learned behaviour, the homosexual must denounce true science as homophobic. Since the public can clearly see that homosexuality is not only physically unhealthy, but also repulsive to the spirit who sees God and His attributes in creation, the homosexual must propagandize them into thoughts which turn away from the reality which their inner spirits see.
Consequently, these wicked and deluded souls, living in their own created "realities," also think themselves to be very, very wise. They are full of understanding of their own delusions in their own minds. But others, especially those who live in the reality and light of God's creation, have not taken the time to learn about these delusions. And why should they? It is better to spend one's time learning more about reality, not about the many delusions created in the dark minds of the wicked. But, to these deluded souls, everyone else seems ignorant. I think we need to understand this attitude among homosexuals, so we do not approach this sin from the wrong angle. We must not believe their propaganda, because it is based on foolish lies. In evangelizing to homosexuals, we must appeal first to any spiritual sense they might have of the spiritual reality and wisdom of the righteousness of God. Then we must point out the physical realities of the sin they practice. We need to break through this delusion of theirs, and get them back into the reality of the lowliness of all human beings, telling them how fragile our bodies truly are, and prone we are to the deception of sin. Then we must instill a new respect for the wise Creator, calling them to rely on Him, not on man. Somehow, although we are all proud and stubborn sinners, we must work to create in them a longing for the simple and righteous life God builds in those who belong to Him.
Like the ancient Romans, and every other perverted sinner before and after them, homosexuals today have exchanged the reality of God's sovereignty and power over all creation, for a distorted imagined greatness of the creation itself. They worship and serve physical things, with a deluded perception of it, promoting the false idea that all power and glory rest in the created things rather than in God, the Creator Himself. In every sense of the word, they are materialists. And they want to educate everyone about their imagined unreality, to force everyone to believe the lie that their own hearts cannot truly believe. Nothing in their philosophy or perception of life is based on the reality which their inner spirits know is true. Their philosophy and view of life denies what their spirits know to be true, because they live only for the flesh.
Nothing in their thoughts is based on true science either, since true science studies God's creation and cannot possibly find anything against the truth God has revealed in His Word or His creation. Truth is truth, whether it is the revelation of the living God in His Word or in science. Real science has always, and always will, confirm the truth of God's Word in every way. Never has true science ever conflicted with what the Bible taught. So Christians must not believe the propaganda of the homosexuals. Homosexuality definitely is not a natural biological sexual orientation, as even science has also proven. Instead, Christians must listen to what the Holy Spirit tells their hearts, and see clearly the reality around them, both the spiritual and physical reality created by God, acknowledging all that God has determined to be right, and abhorring all that God calls sin.
Because homosexuals, and all who deliberately practice sin, love the things of the flesh more than they love the truth, God sometimes abandons them to strong delusions. They are those "with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thessalonians 2:10-12, NKJV). "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen" (Romans 1:24-25, NKJV).
These strong delusions of these sinners are not good in any way. And we are children of the day, children of the light, people who now see reality as it was truly created. We are those who see delusions and deceptions exposed for what they really are, mere wicked imaginations of a sinful heart and mind. So why do we see so many "Christians," even many evangelicals, distribute so much literature in support of the homosexual lifestyle, saying it is a natural and biological orientation? Neither science nor God's Word supports this false belief. This view is simply a dangerous and materialistic delusion, which leads to harm and death, like all sin. Christians must realize this, and preach the truth for the salvation of homosexuals. If they condone homosexuality, they are only encouraging and participating in the destruction and deaths, even the eternal deaths, of these sinners. And they will share in God's condemnation with those who actually practice the sin of homosexuality, since they condone this sin. But, if we pray that God opens the eyes of these deluded souls, and if we preach God's truth in God's service, God may bring some of these souls into the light, and into repentance to the truth and reality of Jesus.
We must remember that it was because these homosexuals exchanged the truth for a lie, that God gave them over to their "vile passions." So, when these "Christians" also exchange the truth for the lie, they too are given over to "vile passions," and to everything else which comes with those "vile passions," including eternal hell. We may not yet see very much homosexuality in the church, but we have seen many other consequences. Since the church has exchanged the truth for a materialistic lie, one of the consequences is feminism. As Paul also said, "For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature." Feminism has promoted the sexual revolution, the homosexual movement, and almost all other forms of "vile passions."
From feminism, we also see "open-minded" men turn to all kinds of pornography. Statistics show that men who have female bosses are more prone to an addiction to pornography. Why? The only reason possible is that their lives are based on a lie, opposed to the order which God created. They have rejected the truth of a simple, godly life based on the family and community which God commanded in the Bible. Everything in their lives becomes twisted and unreal, loveless and sinful, perverted and unnatural, since they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, like materialism. And the Bible calls this slavery or addiction to their sins, the "penalty of their error which was due." Their addiction to sin is indeed a penalty, since it breaks apart families, hurts everyone around them, leads to all kinds of empty relationships, spreads venereal diseases, leaves children without parents, causes some to seek abortions, and so on. Their addiction to sin drains the blood of all spiritual peace and joy from their hearts. Yet, it is their due reward for their intentional deception of themselves, for exchanging the truth for a lie, for loving the things of this world rather than the spiritual things of God.
And we must also remember, homosexuality and lesbianism are not the only consequences of the deliberate, materialistic lies of these sinners. There are many other forms of bondage to sin which result from their intentional self-deception. "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them" (Romans 1:28-32, NKJV).
That is a long list of sins concerning those who forget God. We should guard against all these sins in the church too, since many of these "Christians" who support homosexuality are also those who "did not like to retain God in their knowledge." So we will see an increase in all these sins, not just homosexuality, in both the church and society. As this church and society retains less and less of "God in their knowledge," we will see God give them over to more and more of a "debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting." Anyone who watches the news, or anyone who knows anything about history, knows this always happens.
Yet, in this long list of sins resulting from those who exchange the truth for a lie, we also see that, within their inner hearts, all these vile sinners still know "the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death." All these homosexuals, along with every other sinner in the world, inwardly knows what is right and wrong. They know in their spirits that these sins deserve death. So, when they protest the "persecution" of their sins so vehemently, is it really to convince the public of the goodness and rightness of homosexuality? Or are they just trying to convince their own brains of flesh that their own spirits are wrong to condemn them? Are they more worried about the persecutions which come from those in the world, or the condemnation which comes from their own hearts? Actually, homosexuals (and most other sinners) are very depressed people, statistically. According to some statistics, homosexuals have hundreds of times the rate of suicides, diagnosed depression, and feelings of despair. This is even in areas where homosexuality is commonly accepted. So, obviously it is not because of outside persecution. Homosexuals are seldom very gay since they know in their hearts that they sin, and that God will someday judge them for their sin. No person who deliberately practices sin can possibly find true, inward joy of the very soul and heart, because their hearts know they are condemned. No intentional sinner can ever find peace and joy from God. It simply is not possible, and never will be.
Yet this lack of peace and joy does not deter these people from practicing these deliberate sins, because they do not love the truth at all, and love the things of this world so much. Therefore, they "not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." But "Christians" should never be found among those who "approve of those who practice" these sins, nor among those who "do the same." God can deliver these souls, and will deliver some from these sins. Homosexuality is not an unforgivable sin. However, our duty is not to condone this sin, nor even to tolerate this sin, but to expose this sin. "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light" (Ephesians 5:11-13, NKJV). Of course we can talk to homosexuals, and even love them, caring for them in times of sickness and trouble. But we must do so honestly. If we care for the salvation of their souls, we will preach the truth whenever we have opportunity. And they must know that their homosexuality is a sin. We cannot fall to the lie that these homosexuals deceive themselves with. That does them no good at all. Rather, we must expose this lie, if we really love them and seek real good for both their spirits and bodies.
Those "Christians" who distribute pro-homosexual tracts in our evangelical churches are not from God. Nor do they know Jesus, for God is seeking those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. They have not gone to the Bible to determine what their Lord and Master teaches, but have gone to the darkness of the world for knowledge. So we cannot listen to them. Instead, we should go to God's Word for knowledge in this matter, and to true science which proves that there is no homosexual gene, nor any biological sexual orientation. All the truth of the Word of God, during thousands of years of history, has been tested and proven to be effective when followed. We know we can trust God's Word in all things, because it is proven wisdom. All who reject the truth of God's Word, do so only because they know it is true, and this truth condemns their deliberate sins, which they know are sins. "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God" (John 3:20-21, NKJV).
Yet, all this does not mean that Christians should persecute homosexuals, or any other sinner. We might need to make some laws to prevent sinners from hurting others or themselves too badly. But we must also make some laws allowing a limited amount of freedom of conscience, since no one except God can deliver a soul from the darkness of sin. The Bible definitely calls homosexuality a sin. However, since all people are sinners, we cannot forsake nor persecute those outside the church because of sin. We cannot deny them secular housing, jobs and so on, based only on this sin. Of course, we cannot force people, especially those who have religious convictions, to hire homosexuals or rent property which they know will be used for sin. Why should anyone be forced to condone deliberate sin? Nonetheless, since all are sinners, those who do not allow homosexuals to live or work in any secular place or job, would need to deny the same to all who deliberately practice any kind of sin, not just to homosexuals. And that would mean nobody would ever be considered acceptable for any home or job, not even themselves, since all sin.
The Word of God (which we must live by) clearly states: "I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore 'put away from yourselves the evil person'" (I Corinthians 5:9-13).
Clearly, we are not to judge or fret too much over homosexuals or lesbians who do not claim to be brothers or sisters in the church (that is, churches which minimally claim to believe in Jesus as our Master and God, and who claim to believe that we must obey the Bible as the real Word of God). We cannot demand too much from those outside the true church. Only God can change the hearts of people to believe His words. So we must tolerate secular homosexuals, and must not persecute them. In fact, we can become their friends, if they do not cause us harm. One of my friends is a homosexual, and is a beautiful soul in some ways. He might claim to be a Christian because he was baptized in a church as an infant. However, since his definition of a Christian does not call Jesus the Lord and God, and he does not believe the Bible is God's inerrant Word, I do not call him a real believer. He does not claim to be a real Christian, who believes in Jesus and His Word. So I tell him homosexuality is a sin, but do not refuse to be his friend. If he claimed to believe Jesus is God, or that the Bible is God's Word, yet continued to practice homosexuality, I would rebuke his sin and not fellowship with him until he clearly repented.
A certain number of secular laws in the land must keep order and provide for freedom, but especially the freedom of those who do good. If the sins of others interfere with the freedoms of those who seek to avoid sin -- freedom from fear, freedom to obey God and do good, freedom to speak truth -- then the sinner and his sins must be held in check by society. But a completely different standard exists within the true church, a much higher standard. We must expel from our church membership any who deliberately practice sin, yet still claim to believe in Jesus as their Master, and that His words are true. Only unbelieving homosexuals are welcome to visit the church. Homosexuals who claim to believe Jesus, while still deliberately practicing the sin of homosexuality, are not allowed in the church at all, under any circumstance. If we allowed them anywhere near the church, it would be as much as saying God condoned that sin. Anyone who claims that Jesus is their Lord, yet remains a homosexual, must be completely and totally shunned in every way, until such a person truly repents.
But, an unbelieving homosexual, although he can attend the church, cannot be involved in any of the church work until he begins to believe in Jesus, and repents from practicing homosexuality. In other words, these unbelievers cannot become members of a church. They can only do these things after they repent and believe. However, if they claim to believe in Jesus, yet continue to practice homosexuality, the church should no longer allow them to attend the church services or come anywhere near other Christians, until they repent. Of course, if a believer is weak and falls into sexual sin, yet repents with much prayer, seeking the power of God to remove his sin, and takes action to keep himself away from the source of his temptation, we must forgive and try to help him, not expel him. Expulsion from the church is practiced against deliberate sin, not when someone falls to sin in the weakness of a moment or due to the wrong circumstances. As we all know, sin is often extremely addicting, and very hard to overcome. Jesus told us, "Whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" (John 8:34). Many sins enslave people. So they must learn to avoid certain people and places, and do certain things to keep themselves from falling to their sin. But we should expel only a believer who intentionally sins and refuses to repent.
Therefore, since a believing homosexual is not allowed anywhere near the church, we cannot possibly allow homosexual marriages in the church either. It is completely dishonest to say God will allow the sin of homosexuality if it is done in the "marriage" of same-sex couples. Why try to convince oneself that "married" homosexuals are no longer sinning? Marriage is strictly a covenant of God according to the conditions God ordained -- a covenant involving God, together with His church and society, allowing the sexual and bodily union of one male with one female, while providing for the resulting children of the family unit. The whole purpose of marriage is to enable God's people to do God's work better, while keeping themselves from sin. God's Word clearly and always defines marriage in terms of the union of a male with a female. And the two become one flesh to serve God in many ways, including through the birth of children. "And why one? He seeks godly offspring" (Malachi 2:15, NKJV). Furthermore, one of the sins marriage keeps the married couple from committing, is sexual immorality (I Corinthians 7:9). But God defines sin. And God defines homosexuality to be a form of sin.
Now, if one does not believe God when God calls homosexuality a sin, why would one believe God when God calls extramarital sex a sin? Why would a homosexual think that, by pretending to be married, homosexual relations would become sinless? Does a thief think that, by pretending to be married to the victim he steals from, his theft is no longer a sin? Do the two homosexuals believe this fake marriage will make honest men of them, that God will now accept them because they do not have sex outside of "marriage"? If they do not believe in sin as God defines sin, how can they believe in righteousness as God defines righteousness? So why would those who deliberately sin through homosexuality, try to make themselves righteous through practicing homosexuality in a pretended marriage? Do they think that, by sinning with the same person all the time, this will make their sin not a sin? If a thief always steals from the same person, does this make his theft not a sin? Or do they only desire marriage for financial reasons? Actually, I think homosexual marriage is for financial reasons in many ways. Yet why do they want marriage in the church, to be accepted by the church? The real reason for this is because they want to pretend their sin is not a sin, and they want others to accept this lie with them. But, no matter how many "Christians" accept the lie, God will never accept the lie, and God will condemn all who do accept the lie.
Even those who marry before other gods and in other religions, marry under our God's approval in the Christian viewpoint, since God made marriage for one man and one woman in the beginning. Some of these may not even know their covenant is under the one God, but it is. So the Christian accepts almost any marriage of a man and a woman as being a legitimate marriage. Yet, anyone who marries another person of the same sex, denies God in the covenant, because God never made any such thing as a marriage between two people of the same sex. This is how God defined marriage in the beginning: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Genesis 2:24).
And one cannot make a sin right by pretending it is now done within the will of God in a fake marriage. A sin is a sin. God also called extramarital sex between a male and female a sin. Even if that man and woman do get married, which God allows, they still sinned before they were married. The marriage does not remove their previous sin. However, God may forgive and remove the guilt of their previous sin because they repented and did works of repentance, like getting married in the way God defined marriage. But the adultery before their marriage was still a sin. Of course, with homosexuality, God did not provide any circumstance where it is approved. God did not say homosexual sex is a sin only outside of marriage. In the Bible, homosexuality is always a sin, and marriage is not an option.
Jesus did not come to nullify, but to fulfill the moral law of God, which Moses gave us (Matthew 5:17). And the moral law states: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). Later, it also states: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). This sin was called an "abomination," and was so serious that it carried the death penalty. In the entire history of the church, every biblical prophet and preacher always considered homosexuality to be a terrible sin. How some people in the church can possibly think that God does not call homosexuality a sin is beyond me. The Bible clearly, emphatically calls it a sin.
Yet, keep in mind that these laws were only applied to the Old Testament church of Israel, and they are a shadow of what has come in Jesus. For one thing, the church now expels sinners, it does not kill sinners. The church of Israel was more harsh, because man was shown that he could not obey the law no matter how strong the threat of the law was upon him. Nor did God ever force these laws on the people who did not belong to the church of Israel. But neither the church nor the secular government need enforce this level of punishment, unless the situation demanded such extreme measures for some unusual reason. The Old Covenant law is only a two-dimensional outline of the full, real, three-dimensional, living New Covenant law. And Jesus Himself must write the New Covenant in our hearts and on our minds. We cannot do this by the threat of any law. Therefore, although we know that inward death will come upon all who practice this sin, Jesus' power can free homosexuals from this sin, into new life which cannot die.
There are also other passages about homosexuality in the Bible, all defining it as a sin. In Romans 1:22-28, discussed above, God gives some over to same-sex relationships when they keep their minds on worldly things, excluding God from their thoughts, worshipping the created things by serving them, while they do not serve God. Also, in Genesis 19:5-7, Lot said the desires of the homosexuals of Sodom were wicked. And these men of Sodom were also very worldly. The Bible says: "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy" (Ezekiel 16:49). So homosexuality results from general worldliness, and is sin.
The Bible always speaks of homosexuality as being a sin leading to eternal condemnation. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9-10, NKJV). This states "homosexuals" and "sodomites" will not inherit the kingdom of God. Unless God moves these sinners to repent to a new life through forgiveness in Jesus, and to turn away from their sins, they will go to hell. The word "homosexuals" in this Scripture is a translation of the word "malakos," from common, ancient Greek (the original language of the New Testament). According to linguistic experts F. Rienecker and C. Rogers, it was "a technical term for the passive partner in homosexual relations." The word "sodomites" comes from the ancient Greek word, "arsenokoitees," referring to "a male who has sexual relations with a male."
Of course, we also should remember to look at the rest of this list of sinners who will not be allowed to enter heaven. What makes some think only homosexuals go to hell? Everyone is in need of repentance, for Scripture says, "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23). "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8). The Bible makes it perfectly clear that ever human being that ever lived needs to be changed by God. Every one of us requires repentance and the remission of sins through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, as well as the work of His Holy Spirit to make new hearts and minds in us, before we can enter heaven.
The Scripture above did not list all sins. But, even if just the covetous go to hell, we all should tremble. And sin is addictive, for "whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" (John 8:34). Yet we must realize that God saves some, no matter what kind of sinner they were, no matter how terrible their sins were. God even frees some from homosexuality. Immediately after this list was written in Scripture, the Bible also declared: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). So we must conclude that some of the "washed," "sanctified," and "justified" people of the Corinthian church were once homosexuals. They left their sins behind them, in repentance, just as many homosexuals have done today.
But, even though homosexuals can repent and change in Christ, the church and the governments must be very careful about keeping our young people away from sexual immorality in the first place. Sexual sins are, in some ways, different from most other sins. God's Word commands: "Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body" (I Corinthians 6:18, NKJV). All sins, including sexual sins, come from the disobedience and rebellion of the heart, when the spirit gives in to the will of the flesh, and to temptations of the devil. In most sins, including sexual sins, the life or lives of the victims of sin are violated, harmed, disrupted or even ended. But the sinner can usually walk away from most kinds of sins without any harm to oneself. For example, a murderer, if he has no conscience, can kill someone and continue to live his life as though nothing happened. Of course, eventually God will serve justice. But, until then, the murderer is not generally the victim of his own sin of murder.
Yet, it is different with sexual immorality. The one who commits a sexual sin becomes his or her own victim of the sin, which is why it is one of the devil's favorite sins to entice people into committing. This act of sexual sin causes harm to oneself in many ways -- confusion of heart and mind leading to difficulty in establishing other true and meaningful relationships, strong attachments formed which cannot be fulfilled, addictions to perversions due to confusion in relationships, pregnancies outside of marriage, abortion, lies, anger, frustration, fights and even venereal disease. For the sake of strengthening the union of a man and woman in marriage, God purposed that the act of sex would write strong messages in the physical brain. When a person starts fooling around with sexual immorality, deep patterns are etched on that brain in ways that are distorted, that cause confusion in many areas of life. And these become very difficult to overcome. So, all those who commit sexual sins, including homosexuals, have a very tough road to recovery. Salvation in Christ is not impossible, but it is much harder for those snared by sexual sins. It is hard to repent from any sin, but much easier to repent from sins which are not against oneself, and gain freedom afterwards. Concerning the salvation of any human being, Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26, NKJV). It is impossible for anyone to save himself or herself. But it is definitely true that sexual immorality is a deep pit which certainly is not easy to escape.
Nonetheless, homosexuality is a sin which can be forgiven, a sin which souls can turn away from and leave behind in repentance. Homosexuals are not any more evil than other sinners. For example, I know sinners who have been taken captive to greed, and have caused much physical harm to the poor and needy, even death. This certainly is not a lesser sin than homosexuality. Yet the church not only tolerates this greed, but seems to encourage it, while treating homosexuality as the one and only unforgivable sin.
Perhaps some Christians think this way because they have never really known any homosexuals. I have known several homosexuals. One was young, shallow and rash. The last I heard, he was fleeing the law after robbing a bank. Another has been a friend for many years. He is artistic, impulsive and intelligent, but drifting through life. Then there was a bright, young, impulsive, native man, who was raped by Roman Catholic priests as a boy. He had so much potential, yet killed himself with alcohol and pills after he found out he was HIV positive.
Many times the consequences of sin continue to strike at a homosexual for years after they begin to know Jesus. One former homosexual remained celibate after becoming a Christian, but still struggles with obesity and disease from his past lifestyle. On the other hand, sometimes a radical change in life and thought occurs very soon. Another homosexual was so much into the belief that his homosexual orientation was biological, he began to attempt a sex change. Yet he became a Christian through this crisis, and is now married with children. Furthermore, his job is caring for others in Christ's service. Jesus is transforming him in every way.
The point is, we must admit that homosexuals are wicked sinners, like all of us. And we must serve them in God's way, according to God's will, just as we are to serve any other people when God requires us to do so. We may ask for certain laws which will keep as many as possible out of this sin. However, the threat of laws against homosexuality can never save homosexuals from their sin. Nor can persecution, violence, or condemnation deliver them from the strong bondage and slavery to their sin. Actually, no person was ever really released from the dark and toxic world of sin through force. At times the law must stop some from hurting others and themselves. But it cannot save from sin. Only the truth and power of God's Spirit, as He quickens hearts and minds, can save them from the power of their sin. So Christians must pray for God to save homosexuals, not for God to destroy homosexuals. If God destroyed all sinners, all the earth would die, since all are sinners. With their prayers, Christians must also broadcast the truth concerning the sinfulness of homosexuality, and preach the Gospel of peace with God, which can come to them through Jesus' salvation. The truth of God, if His Spirit is willing, can cut through their darkness and delusions, bringing them into the true light, so they can see. Then His power can convict their hearts and lead them to repentance.
The war of the church against the sin of homosexuality must be fought with compassion and truth. The Bible says "we do not war according to the flesh," and our fight involves "casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ" (II Corinthians 10:3-5). Clearly, our duty to homosexuals, and to all sinners, is not to condemn them to hell and destroy them physically. First of all, no human being has the power to condemn anyone to hell. Only God can do that. We are to condemn and rebuke sin, and warn sinners that sin leads to hell. But we should never think a homosexual is definitely going to hell, then think that we do not need to love that soul, nor seek the salvation of that soul. A Christian should never refuse to preach to homosexuals just because they think all homosexuals are going to hell. Some may yet repent! So we must keep praying and preaching, with concern and love for their souls. But we must also fight a war of words, to teach homosexuals, and all people, the truth, hoping that some may gain abundant life in Christ. The great commission of Jesus was to "make disciples ... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:19-20).
So we continue to war against the lies which promote sexual immorality, because those deceptions are killing our children. Even if some dismiss the words of the Bible against sexual immorality, they cannot dismiss the evidence of science. Homosexuality is very unhealthy, as many medical practitioners will attest, even homosexual doctors themselves. Also, homosexuality is definitely not a natural biological orientation, like some suggest. The verdict is in. The human DNA has been mapped, and no homosexual gene was found. Impulsivity may be genetic, but not homosexuality. Now we can state, beyond any reasonable doubt, that only environment creates homosexuality, not a biological orientation. All verifiable research concludes that homosexuality is an addictive learned behaviour. Also, before some started to "celebrate" homosexuality, many homosexuals repented, and stopped practicing their sin. Among those who stopped practicing homosexuality, the rate of recidivism was low -- about 25% to 40%. Clearly, homosexuality destroys body and soul, but homosexuals can change. Yet our goal is not to merely make heterosexual sinners out of homosexual sinners. Rather, our purpose is to lead homosexuals to Jesus, and let Jesus work His righteousness of all kinds inside them -- heterosexual marriage and all other kinds of righteous love.
The goal of our battle is to turn sinners to the joy of complete, wholesome, godly life in Christ. Heterosexuality alone cannot save, only new life in Christ. So we must teach the entire Gospel, exposing all kinds of carnal, empty lies of this world, replacing sin's death with life.
All sexual sins destroy the intent of God, which is to live a simple and godly life of love. Homosexuality has been overcome by many millions of people over the years, and is not a biological orientation. It hurts people, and is a sin. But real love does not persist in hurting. So, if one loves God, then one stops sinning. Many effective ministries have been able to turn people from homosexuality. Christians must provide for these ministries. And we must also encourage governments to provide similar secular services to help homosexuals out of sin, because it kills their young citizens. But our goal is to turn all sinners to a simple, godly life, free from greed, joyful in daily life, content in all circumstances, peaceful in heart and mind.
One of the needs of a person who does not have the gift of celibacy, who has a strong sex drive, is marriage. Since homosexuals are sexually active, they should get married, but not to one of the same sex, of course. Marriage is good when a male and female come together, and is not only allowed, but encouraged by God, who made the flesh of the body to desire sexual relations. Like other things of the body, like eating and drinking, sex is just a thing of fleshy pleasure. But eating, drinking, rest, sex and all things of the body must be done in their proper place, in moderation, with self-control. Any inordinate practice of these things causes harm. So, if a husband and wife have sex, they do nothing wrong. Sometimes God allows a woman to conceive as well, which results in children, whom we also must serve for God in love. All is service to God, for He is our owner and Lord. And we find joy in serving God.
In addition to all this, men and women have different kinds of brains, which think in complementary ways. So, if a normal man and a normal woman take an IQ test, for example, the sum of their two kinds of brains produces excellent results. But, if two males or two females take an IQ test together, the results are not usually nearly as high. In many other ways, the bodies and brains of a male and female complement each other, forming a perfect unit when they join together. The whole purpose of God is clearly for a man and woman to be together, to complement each other as one unit, to become more than two individuals. And same-sex unions cannot accomplish this.
So, even materialists should reject same-sex relationships for several reasons. First, the physical incompatibility between bodies of the same sex lead to very unhealthy sexual practices. The kinds of sex practiced by homosexuals are extremely unhealthy and lead to many injuries, health problems, diseases or even death. Also, a person in a same-sex relationship can never reach his or her potential of intelligence and wisdom in the home, like he or she could in a relationship with a person of the opposite sex. Male and female brains complement and help each other to grow in many ways. Not only this, but the male brain has a structure and natural body chemicals which affect his behaviour, and the female brain has a different structure and different natural body chemicals which affect her behavior in different ways. These natural behavior traits fit together with the natural behavior traits of the opposite sex, and even cause a partner of the opposite sex to grow in health and character. But these natural behaviors cause nothing but trouble when two people of the same sex try to live with each other as sexual partners. God designed all the physical traits of human beings, and His Word commands wise practices which work better than anything the world has to offer by their foolish ideas about same-sex relationships.
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That is exactly what I wanted from you Renegade (post 59). To me, the best argument is one that looks at all sides, and even brings up ones to support the side it is against, and then brings good, solid evidence to their side. This is well thought out, and well made. I do not know this person, but I am very glad for this argument. If I were you Renegade, this is exactly what I would have said.
[Message Edited]
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The Holy Scriptures of both Jews and Christians forbids homosexuality.
There are two pillars of truth that stand to defend the Bible here, one for Christians, and another for both Jews and Christians. Truth regarding homosexuality for Jews appears in the Torah of the Tanakh (the Christian Old Testament). Truth regarding homosexuality for Christians appears both in the Old and in the New Testament.
The sin of Sodom was homosexuality.
Homosexuality is condemned by the Law of Moses in the Jewish Tanakh, in the Torah
Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: " If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'
The male to female sexual relationship is the only one allowed by Jesus (Matthew 19:4-6): "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Sodomy and lesbianism is condemned by God through Paul in Romans 1:24-32: "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."
The following is biblical commentary of Romans 1:24-32, provided by the Life Application Bible, New King James Version, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois, pg.2056. "Paul clearly portrays the inevitable downward spiral into sin. First, people reject God; next, they make up their own ideas of what a god should be and do; then they fall into sin - sexual sin, greed, hatred, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossip. Finally, they grow to hate God and encourage others to do so. God does not cause this steady progression toward evil. Rather, when people reject him, He allows them to live as they choose. God gives them over or permits them to experience the natural consequences of their sin. Once caught in the downward spiral, no one can pull himself or herself out. Sinners must trust Christ alone to put them on the path of escape."
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#66
by Citizen Bam_Bam - 4/8/2004 12:04:56 PM
An answer to Renegade's post EDIT (posts)--offerred as a "devil's advocate (PUN NOT INTENDED)--to the Christian viewpoint espoused above.
| According to the biblical gospel, God’s grace in salvation and acceptance is found in a narrow way not a broad way. Acceptance by God comes through our repentance of our sins and faith in the sacrifice of God’s Son upon the cross. We have to accept that we are bad in order to become good. Then when we receive Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit cleanses us and indwells us. This is what brings deliverance from the slavery of sexual sin and all other sins. To find deliverance we have to come by the “narrow” way that Jesus talked about (Matt. 7:14). The broad way is a way to damnation. This is what Jesus taught. God does not accept us as we are. His Son went to the cross and bled and died because of what we are (all of us). |
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Ok, I am taking just a bit of your long post and offering another view.
By the above, any non-practicing Christian is also a sinner in your eyes. You state that you are against the homosexual lifestyle and any expansion of [their] rights.
Marriage is a CIVIL UNION RECOGNIZED by the STATE. That it has basis in Judeo-Christian, Muslim, and other religious culture is not exactly relevant to the legal issues, though it is relevant to the context of what the STATE intends by sanctioning marriage. The prevailing context of marriage as recognized by the STATE is a Judeo-Christian monogamous union of man and woman.
The Declaration of Independence for the US stated the following:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Now at the time, the words generally meant "white, landowning men, in practice. The "Men" to which the intent of the Declaration is applied has been significantly broadened over the course of eleven score and about eight years--including all men and women.
I will not argue with you that your and your church's view of Christianity considers homosexuality as a sin and not part of God's will for man. That is not a universal Christian belief, and quite frankly, the thought that one religion, or one interpretation of the Bible is dead on strikes me as something that has twisted the fundamental teachings and message of the Christ. The Bible is at best, a divinely inspired creation by MAN, translated many times from the original text. If we are all creations of a divine being, how come there are so many versions of the narrow path that alone will lead to salvation? I respect your view, Renegade, but for me, a view that only those will be saved that follow a specific interpretation of Christian Dogma is not the message of Christianity. Not to mention, there are similar messages in Judaism and Islam, many of which are shared. Perhaps God has revealed himself to people at levels to which each of them can understand and form a personal, spiritual relationship. I cannot believe that a narrow interpretation of the Biblical text can exclude from salvation someone whose lifelong human commitment to one other happens to be of the same sex. That is not the MESSAGE of the Christ, for me.
Now, back to marriage, before I digress further. Homosexuals have the right to vote, as do the rest of us sinners. The question becomes whether the STATE should extend the rights, responsibilites, and restrictions (three R's) of MARRIAGE beyond just that between a man and woman. These 3 R's provide societal context for how two people who choose to spend their life together are recognized by the state. Throw out the baggage of religion or context, please. People are going to choose to live together regardless of whether or not the STATE recognizes theire union as a marriage. It is in the best interest of the STATE to provide an equal framework for adult partners to function within the society. This is about equal protection under the law, for those who seek it. Married folks get to pay higher income taxes in many brackets, have specific limitations on community property, on how the dissolution of the union goes, etc. I do not see allowing man-man or woman-woman marriages recognized by the STATE is an extention or granting of NEW rights to people. It is merely clarifying that the CIVIL union of two adults as recognized by the STATE is equally applied to all people. It is consistent with the notion of "equal protection under the law" as defined in Section I of Ammendment 14 to the US Constitution.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
People wrap this issue to deep in cultural and religious beliefs, which are useful in the context of how the STATE functions, but are not the defining guidance for how the STATE should function. In this context, Marriage is a set of rights, responsibilities, and restrictions applied by the STATE to two people that seek recognition of their union by the STATE. Nothing more.
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A quick answer to your words
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth....
How you expect to replenish the Earth by making a man sleep with a man and a woman with a woman? What clonning?
Give me a break.
Try to twist, bend or alter God's word to make it fit man's agenda is a battle that has raged from the beginning when the Devil twisted God's word to make man sin.
The day will come when we all shall stand before the throne of God and the book of life will be open and then those who have rejected God's instruction will receive the payment that they have sought for so long.
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#68
by Citizen Exar Kuun - 4/8/2004 1:59:54 PM
| Nothing in their thoughts is based on true science either, since true science studies God's creation and cannot possibly find anything against the truth God has revealed in His Word or His creation. Truth is truth, whether it is the revelation of the living God in His Word or in science. Real science has always, and always will, confirm the truth of God's Word in every way. Never has true science ever conflicted with what the Bible taught. So Christians must not believe the propaganda of the homosexuals. Homosexuality definitely is not a natural biological sexual orientation, as even science has also proven. Instead, Christians must listen to what the Holy Spirit tells their hearts, and see clearly the reality around them, both the spiritual and physical reality created by God, acknowledging all that God has determined to be right, and abhorring all that God calls sin. |
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My view on this statement as a scientist is that the bloke is speaking a load of tosh. I have a degree in Biochemistry with specialisation in protein design/genetics and worked in research science before going into behavioural therapy and then teaching. I have also had some work published in this field. So I think I may speak with some authority on this subject.
I feel I must take issue with the fact that "true science" has never contradicted the bible. Real science does not confirm god's truth. Science has proven the bible wrong on many things. Lets start with the copernican view of the universe, it is in direct contradiction of the Earth centred theory. We are not in a place of prime importance but in a minor galaxies proverbial backwater. In the bible many diseases/afflictions are accreditted to people having sinned. We now know that this is not true, it is down to genetics and infection. According to the bible the Earth is only a few thousand years old. Science proves it is more like 6 billion. Science and Religion do not agree and that has been largely responsible for the decline of the church in the modern day. People can see it is full of contradictions/half-truths and in many cases is just plain wrong. So is this guy really saying things like the Earth is 6,000 years old? Explain the dinosaurs mate. What about evolution, like it or not Humans evolved from Chimpanzee's. I would love to hear his views on that.
There is concrete science on the fact that homosexuality has a base in a persons genetics. Anyone who tells you different does not understand the subject. For a start genes have been identified which increase the chance of offspring being homosexual. So there is genuine scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic. The exact loci of the genes are as yet unknown its like trying to find a needle in a haystack but we have localised several genes to specific areas of chromosomes. In case you are wondering what this means - it means we have a comparable level of proof as for the genes which cause breast cancer. Would he deny that breast cancer has a genetic basis?
He also states that psychologists beleieve homosexuals can be "cured", this is not the current view held by cognitive psychologists. The current field of opinion is basically that their made that way, help them to come to terms with it and overcome the social stigma which is attached to it. It appears that the initial cause of homo/heterosexuality is genetic but is modified by the social conttact the infant recieves. Most important in this appears to be the contact within what are known as the attachment cycles, the first three years of life.
So basically whether you are straight or gay is beyond your control. It is caused by yours genetics and social contacts. The majority of the population is heterosexual because the majority are genetically predisposed towards heterosexuality and so are the social contacts they recieve.
 
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| How you expect to replenish the Earth by making a man sleep with a man and a woman with a woman? What clonning?Give me a break. |
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okay renegade your not getting a break because for instance with this here is the second time you've said it, This is the utmost extreme of what could happen, and it's not going to happen, as i have said before, a minority of the population is not going to make the rest of the population homosexual.
saying that is like saying, i won't buy a twinkie cause if i do i'll be a murder cause it funds an organization which invests in a charity which a man embezzles from who buys drugs that fund terrorists, so therefore i am a murderor.
*sarcastically* and in any case you and the rest of your like minded individuals will continue the survival of the human species, so you don't have to worry do you?
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Enuff said. Time will prove who is wrong who is not.
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btw renegade, my friend i talked about in my initial post says you would make a great doomsayer in the game neverwinter nights, congratulations  
no insult intended 
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#73
by Citizen Bam_Bam - 4/8/2004 2:14:10 PM
| #67 by Veteran The Renegade - 4/8/2004 1:34:34 PM A quick answer to your wordsGen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth....How you expect to replenish the Earth by making a man sleep with a man and a woman with a woman? What clonning?Give me a break.Try to twist, bend or alter God's word to make it fit man's agenda is a battle that has raged from the beginning when the Devil twisted God's word to make man sin. The day will come when we all shall stand before the throne of God and the book of life will be open and then those who have rejected God's instruction will receive the payment that they have sought for so long. |
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And I am sure the Muslims can cite similar phrases in the Qur'an that point out how those who do not follow specific literal text will be subject to damnation. Sorry, that dog don't hunt here. Besides, what of men and women who marry and choose not to procreate? Are they defying God's will?
Your arguments are all well and good, but you are interjecting religious rhetoric into a discussion that is fundamentally a matter of the STATE. If we tried to craft all our laws based on specific religious dogma...there would be no laws because there is not a consensus of religious bodies on all issues.
I repect your beliefs on this issue, even though I do not agree with them. I point out inconsistencies in you approach, and facts that show that your view is held by many whom you would damn for not holding and following your beliefs as perspective only. I do not doubt the depth of your feelings and the benefits your beliefs and practices have had on your spiritual development and life and the lives of those around you.
But what you fail to recognize is that those beliefs are not germane to the subject of whether or not the rights, responsibilities, and restrictions of marriage (as a civil union recognized by the STATE) should be extended to couples of the same gender who so desire that recognition by the STATE. The United States of America's laws are based on the Constitution, which limits the Government's powers in enacting laws respecting the establishment of religiion (or the practice thereof), and provides for equal protection under the law for "all persons under its jurisdiction".
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Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: 'mar-ij also 'mer-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Old French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a : the state of being married b : the mutual relation of husband and wife : WEDLOCK c : the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family
According to the encyclopedia britannica link  Link
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