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Do you still think GalCiv 1 is fun even with GalCiv II out?
758 votes
1- Yes
2- No


Governments
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#25  by Citizen C0664 - 11/3/2003 7:14:28 AM

I mean Confirm

                  
#26  by Veteran vincible - 11/3/2003 1:53:37 PM

It's definitely more expensive. I rather doubt it affects your score though.

                        
#27  by Citizen LDiCesare - 11/4/2003 10:45:07 AM

It is definitely more expensive and I think it affects your score. When you look at the econ score, there is an entry 'cash lost on leases/tributes'. If you rush buy a lot, you will have a huge hole right there in the econ score page at the end of the game.
I have no idea how this part of the score is computed, however, so I may be wrong, but it shows.
A typical rushbuy has 2 costs: The cost itself + the cost of the lost production on the planet (when you build ships - I think social improvements don't lose money). The sheer lease cost is much larger than what you'd pay over N turns.

                      
#28  by Citizen C0664 - 11/5/2003 6:52:04 AM

Arghhh,

I know it is much expansive but I use this for wonders and trade goods some times because the computer does. If you want the 20 or so turns allowed to the construction of a wonder not to be lost, you must complete it before the aliens! But if I loose points doing that there is no issues.

                  
#29  by Citizen LDiCesare - 11/5/2003 8:41:06 AM

The idea is that you won't need leasing if you can spend at 100%, because you'll get the tech earlier and then build it faster. But I agree, sometimes, you may want to lease some stuff. To me it's mostly culture enhancement on border planets (read planetary culture bombs).

                      
#30  by Citizen C0664 - 11/5/2003 11:28:34 AM

Yes LDC, but a bigger civ than mine (try to remember you firt plays...) reach tech before me

C+

                  
#31  by Citizen LDiCesare - 11/6/2003 4:44:50 AM

The point is that they reach it before you BECAUSE you lease and don't spend at 100%.
Now some techs you'll never be first and have to lease if you want the trade goods (nano metal composition, the tri strontium stuff TG and the other one). These are atually better left to the ai (or, even better, a minor) so you can focus on something else. Also don't lease if the only civ that might built aTG is a minor. You'll be better off buying it from them later on. Wonders are worth buying, though, particularly the Galactic Stock Exchange.

                      
#32  by Citizen C0664 - 11/6/2003 9:01:09 AM

LDCI,

You're wright, I just managed to buy 5 trade goods in one turn to the Carnidoids... nice people
Actually I've change my government (cf this thread) and I can't spend the money I earn

C+

                  
#33  by Veteran Maxtipherous - 11/6/2003 12:39:42 PM

Jexal -- there is a very complex economic model underpinning the game, but this one is easy. Spending your money on social improvements that increase money and morale earns you *increadingly* more money in the long run -- growth produces increased tax base produces growth.

LDiCesare -- it is a common misconception that the various scores on the summary screens somehow affect the final score. They don't.

Here is the text on scoring (I'm sorry I don't remember who to credit (from the 1.05 era):

Difficulty Level:
The base score is based on the intelligence of the various computer players. This makes up the vast majority of the score. There is a slight bonus for playing as the opposite alignment as most of the players for most of the game. It looks at each turn and then looks at how much you are different each turn. But it's a relatively small adustment.

Galaxy Size:
There is a moderate adjustment based on galaxy size. But not much. Gigantic galaxy vs. tiny will be about a 3 to 1 difference in scores if all variables are the same.

Population:
Population is looked at but its value decreases as the game progresses. It is Population P / Turns N ^2. You're actually better off having a pretty good population earlier than having a huge population later and sitting on it. You're not penalized for having long games though, you simply don't get additional points at a certain point. That said, population is a relatively minor part of the scoring. It also takes into account what percentage of the total galactic population you have that turn. That is, your score is then modified by 100% - your percent of the population. So if you have 90% of the galactic population, you're only going to get 10% of the population score that turn.

Technology:
What percentage of the technology tree you have acheived and how fast you get it are added in. A fairly modest bonus but it's still lookeda t.

Economics, Trade Goods, Wonders, etc.
These other things are looked at and a few points added. They won't make that big of a difference (on a 15,000 point score they may add a few hundred points total).

Victory Condition:
Then the victory condition is looked at. The score is multiplied by it. Conquest = 10. Alliance =9. Culture = 8. Technology Victory = 7 (bear in mind that this is partially made up for by having a higher percent of the tech tree completed bonus).

Notes:
You're best scoring scenario is to win but not win too quickly. The system is designed to appeal to the mass majority of players, not the top 10 players. As a result, we want to create a system that rewards people for playing the game as it was designed to be played. That means your best bang for the buck will be games that are medium in length. You get serious diminishing returns. Sitting on 90% of the galaxy for turn after turn is not going to net you more points. You're not penalized either but you're not rewarded for having a huge population if you've got the game wrapped up. On the other hand, win the game in say year 3 due to some specific strategy won't net very good scores because you haven't had time to build up other parts to get multiplied by.


                      
#34  by Citizen musicfan55 - 11/6/2003 1:11:44 PM

Thanks Maxti. I first saw that first posted by Ray the Wanderer and I think this is attributable to the Precursor, himself, Brad the Frogboy. It dates back to at least early summer, maybe earlier.

There have been some comments as to whether alliance is really 9/10 of conquest or culture is 8/10 or tech is 7/10 but this is a good reference for sure. Thank you.

                          
#35  by Veteran vincible - 11/6/2003 2:44:58 PM

Yes, Frogboy posted that first, and Ray's reposted it several times.

I don't believe him on the victory conditions, nor on the tech tree completed bonus.

                        
#36  by Ambassador Ray the Wanderer - 11/6/2003 8:56:45 PM

My opinion is that the alignment bonus and the victory condition scoring are buggy.

I'm with Maxtipherous in not believing that the summary screens have anything to do with scoring in its current iteration.

                        
#37  by Citizen Jexal - 11/6/2003 10:26:09 PM

Hey LDiCesare,
I've used leases alot and it does not affect your score at all.
Your fellow player,
Jaxel



                       Posted via Stardock Central
#38  by Citizen LDiCesare - 11/7/2003 8:56:50 AM

Here is the text on scoring (I'm sorry I don't remember who to credit (from the 1.05 era):

The problem with that text is that if you win a game by tech and then replay it to an alliance on same turn, you can see a difference that is not consistent with what's written there.
Anyway:
Economics, Trade Goods, Wonders, etc.
These other things are looked at and a few points added. They won't make that big of a difference (on a 15,000 point score they may add a few hundred points total).
means economics (including leases...) may have an impact, but we don't have any idea what. From my experiments, their effect is bigger than the population effect. If they didn't exist, it would be a good idea to give some population/planets to your allies in order to increase your relative population (the formula exposed by Brad means the best pop score you get is if yu hvae 50% of the galactic population). This is false, therefore, the 'small factor' doesn't look so small.
Jexal, can you compare a game with leases and one without and see the difference? I believe too many other parameters would vary so the comparison would be inaccurate.
I do not think leases have an effect, but I think noone can rule it out.

[Message Edited]

                      
#39  by Citizen C0664 - 11/7/2003 10:32:27 AM

Hi there,

Very happy to see that "my" thread become more and more intresting. Thanks for all these tips and explanations. I'm finishing my 4th game and I have the possibility to end it with any of victory condition as it is. In fact I'm quite sad to see that the old crush them all is still the more valuable.

To came back to the original subject of this thread I think we should make some propositions for the next versions of the game... Not just only dicuss what is in wright now (even if this part is also fascinating).

Yours

C+

                  
#40  by Citizen Slatz_Grobnik - 11/9/2003 2:02:10 AM

Vincible: Two words: Democratic Lithovores. None dare opposse my rock-eating freedom lovers.

I tend to push forward on the governments, as long as I think I've the economy and morale to do so. It's like anything else in this game. I don't mind the lack of texture so much. I don't mind the government thing being an absolute deal maker/breaker, or rather I prefer it this way, where it's not so powerful.

See, that's my thing in the MOO2 race pick notion - in GalCiv I can't break the picks that are "obvious" for my game. Money is key because money does everything.



                   Posted via Stardock Central
#41  by Citizen LeegleechN - 12/20/2003 10:50:26 PM

This is true unless you choose in an event the evil option that lowers the interest rate (actually it raises the interest rate ability). In that case, leasing is sometimes actually cheaper!

                      
#42  by Citizen haskellal - 2/10/2004 1:26:36 PM

When i recently switched from republic to democracy, my net income went down 400 bc this seems to be antithetical to the economic boost that that you get from upgrading gov'ts

       
#43  by Citizen Bam_Bam - 2/10/2004 2:07:46 PM

That may be exactly correct.

There are two concepts at play here.

One is true income; that is, your receipts from taxes, trade, and tribute. I suspect that number went up as you changed governments. Think of this as your fuel.

Second is spending capacity: This of this as your ability to spend--i.e., the size of the engine. This changes even more radically with government changes.

So, even if you have more income (fuel) coming in with the government swap--the size of your spending machine has grown at a faster pace.

I usually see a dramatic shift when I switch from a social build of all the tech improvements back to research, and I can no longer afford 100% spending, because the research engine is too big for the fuel supply.

Hope this helps.

- Bam-Bam

                      
#44  by Citizen LDiCesare - 2/11/2004 4:36:00 AM

When i recently switched from republic to democracy, my net income went down 400 bc this seems to be antithetical to the economic boost that that you get from upgrading gov'ts


Yes but you produce more for the same percentage of spendings.
If you had, for instance, 100% spendings in 100% tech under republic and made +400bc and would research Tech X in 10 turns, after switching you will have only +0bc income but will be researchin the same tech in only 5 turns. If you reduce the spendings so that you'd get it in 10 turns, you'll make more than +400bc.
All figures are made up, but that's the general idea.

                      
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