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Late-game Income problems...
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I'm playing a small/Normal game and have ended up in more or less a stalemate with the Arcean/Drengin alliance. The real problem is my revenue keeps decreasing due to maintenance, I guess. I currently am at 62% tax rate (71% morale) and my Spending rate is 8% and I keep LOSING MONEY! I can't do any research at all (I'm doing Near Omniscience - everything else has been done). If I put anything into research my revenue goes negative immediately.
I've built every income-producing improvement that is available. My trade is maxed at 9 routes (average about 100 each) and I have a small lease cost (100bc).
There are also some strange things happening when I adjust the tax rate. For example, if I up it 1 point, my revenue actually DECREASES. Same thing if I lower it 1 point as would be expected.
I think there must be a bug here (v1.03.a57). Anybody know what might be happening?
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#1
by Diplomat Ralegh - 5/12/2003 11:43:50 PM
I believe everything you describe could be the game working properly. It will be hard to resurrect your economy from here, but it is doable if you can be ruthless enough. The solution to the situation:
- reduce your expenses by selling off the older ships, and getting rid of buildings you don't use (a lot of research and military enhancements are obviously worthless to you at the moment)
- increase your income: get your pop to grow (see next point), improve your trade bucks (starbase improvements on the trade routes, change to better routes if necessary)
- get your tax rate DOWN - ideally all the way to 35% (over this level, you get less spending per dollar of tax due to bureaucracy) - reducing taxes will help your morale, which will (a) let you can get rid of the expensive morale improvements (which I never build) and (b) increase your population growth rate
Notes on what you see:
- Income dropping: at high levels of tax, people leave the tax-paying economy (so pop looks like it goes down, because pop is actually tax payers, not all people), and income goes down. This happens to me at much lower levels that 71% - must be a benefit to you being at Normal difficulty.
- With your research spending: because of how the bonuses work, the smallest unit of increase may actually be quite high - since trying to spend a bc forcing you to spend that bc + 1/3 your research bonus. You might find it easier (although less cost efficient) if you got rid of your research improvements... Nah - this is silly.
        
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#2
by Veteran Za H - 5/13/2003 12:03:53 AM
It's not a bad idea to scrap research improvements once you control a few research resources actually. You can get 2/3rd of your resource bonus free, but only 1/3rd from social improvement bonuses. Sticking with resources can save you a lot of cash. The same applies to production bonuses as well.
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#3
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/13/2003 3:25:17 AM
To Za H
If you read my post at Apolyton, it's not correct. Too sad that Economy in Encyclopedia is outdated. At least i see that now both starbase +production modules and +production buildings give 1/3 to capacity and 2/3 free instead of (2/3, 1/3 and 1/2, 1/2). Don't checked this by myself.
But it's still true with research.
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#4
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/13/2003 3:26:24 AM
Don't checked this by myself. -> I don't checked this by myself before writing the post, got from Encyclopedia.
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#5
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/13/2003 3:29:31 AM
2 Ralegh:
+Morale and +PQ improvements are the most efficient improvements as long as your spending not equal to 100%. Don't know how you can play w/o them.
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#6
by Veteran Za H - 5/13/2003 3:36:51 AM
Ellestar:
Huh?
:::scratches head:::
What I was trying to say is, if you control resources that boosted research, you don't really need those expensive Research Centers and the like. My comment on production bonuses was in reference to Anti-Matter Power Planets and etc., which are also outperformed by starbases at some point.
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#7
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/13/2003 5:43:12 AM
To Za H
Last time you said that bonuses to research are efficient, even if they are counter-intuitive. I said "don't be so sure". I see that at this time you said that bonuses to research from buildings are not always efficient. >> I thought that you read my post.
And i wanted to note that tests show that +production buildings/starbase modules give 1/3 to capacity and 2/3 for free.
Now i see that you don't read my post, because i said there that if you have >100% bonus from Research resources, then +Research buldings just reduce your % of free research.
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Thanks for the info! It looks to me that you can't maintain an empire if you build everything that is available. There doesn't seem to be enough income-producing improvements to offset the maintenance costs late in a game. I've upgraded all my starbases fully except for weapons. If I get rid of too many ships then the Arceans attack me and wipe me out because they seem to have Overlords in every planet.
It may be that I didn't capture enough resources at the beginning as I have only 20% at this point. I'm doing 40% of the trade and am rated 1st in power. But I can't seem to break the stalemate. Guess I'll give up and start a new game...
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#11
by Veteran Za H - 5/13/2003 9:31:52 PM
Ellestar:
I use the word "efficient" as a relative term. Building a few Research Labs is better than building nothing at all, and that was all I wrote last time. You said "don't be so sure", so I had to prove it with math. Just to reiterate this:
Resource > Research Buildings > Nothing
As for production, I haven't tested it in a while so I would appreciate it if you could post some hard data to demonstrate which parts of the Encyclopedia are wrong.
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#12
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/14/2003 12:37:52 AM
To Za H
If you have a 100% bonus from research resource, then you have 133,33% capcity and 66,66% free bonus. So you recieve additional 50% research for free. If you have also a buildings/techs that gives any % to research, say it's 30%, then you'll get 153,33% capcity and 76,66% free. So you recieve same additional 50% research for free. But you must pay upkeep for a building!
More important, If you have a 300% (this is true with any >100%) bonus from research resource, then you have 200% capcity and 200% free bonus. So you recieve additional 100% research for free. If you have also a buildings/techs that give any % to research, say it's 30%, then you'll get 220% capcity and 210% free. So you recieve LESS additional research for free - 95%.
//As for production, I haven't tested it in a while so I would appreciate it if you could post some hard data to demonstrate which parts of the Encyclopedia are wrong.//
As i already said, now both starbase +production modules and +production buildings give 1/3 to capacity and 2/3 free instead of (2/3, 1/3 and 1/2, 1/2 in Encyclopedia >> i thought that +production buildings are inefficient if starbases give >200% +production bonus, now this is not right).
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#13
by Veteran Za H - 5/14/2003 9:18:43 AM
Ellestar:
What you just wrote about research is in complete agreement with what I had posted earlier. I have in fact read your post on Apolyton too. While it has some very detailed calculations, I am afraid it will remain an exercise in speculation until you provide some proof to corroborate your results. I checked your hypothesis on production and research with my current game, and the results were way off. On the other hand, they didn't agree with what was presented in the Encyclopedia either, so I guess we're both back to square one now 
Some of my test results...
458% research bonus from resources
0% research bonus from social improvements
3.66 mean ratio of free research to paid research
96% of bonus is free
458% research bonus from resources
25% research bonus from social improvements
3.90 mean ratio of free research to paid research
97% of bonus is free
458% research bonus from resources
58% research bonus from social improvements
4.21 mean ratio of free research to paid research
98% of bonus is free
Mean ratio of free research to paid research is obtained from 10 samples of general spending level from 10-100% in intervals of 10%.
The significance of the above is that any type of research bonus will improve your research efficiency. In light of this new development, I will have to retract my earlier suggestion in post #2 of this thread. The decision of scrapping buildings is impossible to make until we figure out how research and production bonuses are actually applied in game.
Here are some of the test results for production. I've been careful to avoid the 3xPQ break point so the diminishing returns don't kick in yet...
0% production bonus from starbases
75% production bonus from social improvements
0.32 mean ratio of free production to paid production
56% of bonus is free
0% production bonus from starbases
50% production bonus from social improvements
0.22 mean ratio of free production to paid production
53% of bonus is free
0% production bonus from starbases
30% production bonus from social improvements
0.13% mean ratio of free production to paid production
48% of bonus is free
400% production bonus from starbase
0% production bonus from social improvements
1.98 mean ratio of free production to paid production
83% of bonus is free
760% production bonus from starbase
0% production bonus from social improvements
3.67 mean ratio of free production to paid production
89% of bonus is free
Looking at these production and research figures, you'll notice that the ratio of free bonus to paid bonus may in fact converge to infinity as you pile on more bonuses, and the significance of that is...
HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!
It seems like Brad has either made some undocumented changes to the game or he's missed a serious problem with the game formulas.
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#16
by Veteran Za H - 5/14/2003 7:03:35 PM
You are not paying attention, Ellestar. Even in the example I gave on research above, it only takes a base investment of 17 BC to recoupe the maintenance cost of those expensive Research Centers. How can you say that "research buildings are useless" in light of these facts?
Please don't let your preivous work burden you, Ellestar. I've thrown away all my assumptions and returned to the facts. I suggest you do the same as well.
The "X% of bonus is free" figure is basically your "FreeBonusModifier", and it is derived from the mean ratio of free production or research to paid production or research (let's make that "R") and total bonus (let's make that "B"). Starting out with the same formula as you did, we have...
R = ( XB ) / [ 1 + (1-X)B ]
Solve that for X and you get...
X = ( R + RB ) / ( B + RB )
The data I have gathered indicates a steady increase in research efficiency (X) as you accumulate more bonuses (B), which is in stark disagreement to the formulas above. As fact takes precedence over theory, our preconceptions about how research and production bonuses are applied in GalCiv will have to be adjusted to account for these results.
I have no idea what you are referring to as "maximum free bonus" since I can perceive no significance to your (FreeBonusModifier/NonFreeBonusModifier) figure. Neither do I have a clue to what you mean by "% of points for free from your spending". Please give me some examples with real numbers so I can understand what you mean. Thanks!
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#17
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/15/2003 12:16:58 PM
Ok i think it's a chance to improve our startegy skills.
-----------------------------------
This is for Military production, same with Social Production / Research
--
Sliders
SpendRate Domestic Policy-> Economic -> Spend Rate (Government Expenditures)
IncomeDistributionXXX Domestic Policy-> Economic -> Income Distribution XXX
--
Base (before any bonuses) maximum planetary production (after starting new game (w/o production/research bonuses), you set sliders SpendRate to 100% and IncomeDistributionMilitary to 100%, then your planet will have that number of 'shield' icons in military)
PlanetCapacity=BaseCapacity*CapacityMod
--
This is a number of shields for any slider settings if you have no bonuses to production
BaseMilitaryProduction=PlanetCapcity*SpendRate*IncomeDistributionMilitary
Say, if you have 50% SpendRate and 50% IncomeDistributionMilitary, you'll get only 1/4 (50%*50%) of your maximum base production.
Say, your BaseMilitaryProduction=15 (for later examples)
--
If you have some bonuses to production, then this bonus spreads in two parts - free bonus and non-free bonus.
MilitaryBonus=FreeMilitaryBonus+NonFreeMilitaryBonus
AFAIK for starbase production modules in patch 1.03A.057 it will be
NonFreeBonusModifier=1/3, FreeBonusModifier=2/3
NonFreeMilitaryBonus=MilitaryBonus*NonFreeBonusModifier
FreeMilitaryBonus=MilitaryBonus*FreeBonusModifier
Say, you have 100% production bonus from starbases in this sector. Then your NonFreeMilitaryBonus=100%*1/3=33,33%
FreeMilitaryBonus=100%*2/3=66,67%
--
Your number of non-free 'shields' - say you have 20+10 shields on your screen, so 20 shields is your non-free 'shields' or NonFreeMilitaryProduction
NonFreeMilitaryProduction=BaseMilitaryProduction*(1+NonFreeMilitaryBonus)
NonFreeMilitaryProduction=15*(1+33,33%)=20
--
Your number of free 'shields' - say you have 20+10 shields on your screen, so 10 shields is your non-free 'shields' or FreeMilitaryProduction
FreeMilitaryProduction=BaseMilitaryProduction*FreeMilitaryBonus
FreeMilitaryProduction=15*66,67%=10
--
How fast you can produce things. Say, you have 30 total 'shields' (20+10) on your screen - that means that you can produce ship with a production cost of 300 in 10 turns.
TotalMilitaryProduction=NonFreeMilitaryProduction+FreeMilitaryProduction
--
But this production costs you money - you must pay for non-free 'shields'. say you have 20+10 shields on your screen, then you must pay 20bc for this production. (Your planetary spending will increase by this amount of bc).
MilitaryProductionSpending=NonFreeMilitaryProduction
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#18
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/15/2003 12:29:10 PM
This means that for every 1 bc spent you get 1 non-free 'shield' and a number of free shields equal to FreeBonusModifier/(1+NonFreeBonusModifier)=66,67% / (1+33,33%)=50%.
If you spend 20 bc, you'll get 20+20*(FreeBonusModifier/(1+NonFreeBonusModifier))=20+20*(66,67% / 133,33%)=20+20*50%=30 'shields'
This means that you got an additional 50% from your spending for free - this is a 'real' bonus that give you your +100% production starbase bonus in this example.
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#21
by Citizen WasabeXX - 5/16/2003 12:36:00 AM
Good math Ellestar!
However, it's not the same when it comes to research, or at least it doesn't show the same on the planetary summary screen.
"FreeMilitaryProduction=BaseMilitaryProduction*FreeMilitaryBonus
FreeMilitaryProduction=15*66,67%=10"
For research, I think that it shows:
FreeResearch=AmountSpentOnResearch*FreeResearchbonus
FreeResearch=amountspent*.6667*totalbonus
So if the amountspent equaled 15, and bonus was 600% then:
FreeResearch=15*.67*600%=90
And you would see 105 total shields, 15 "paid" and 90 "free". This actually does happen for research, you can spend a little and get huge amounts of free research as a bonus. Research doesn't seem to be capped or diminished by the planet size like Military and Social production either. I had one planet where my research was (200+1200) for 1400 total research "shields"
However, I'm not so sure that the full amount of the "free" research shields actually are counted. I may be totally wrong, but I think that for purposes of how much research "shields" get applied to whatever project you are researching, your calculations are totally correct. But the display on the planetary summary shows totally off. Like in my example it will say 1400 shields, but only 600 are actually applied to the project. . .
Does any of that make sense? What do you think?
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#22
by Citizen WasabeXX - 5/16/2003 1:05:15 AM
To Z aH: In my last post, I said "good math" to Ellestar, but I was thinking about your math, sorry. The praise should have gone to you.
The bonus's are definatly hard to figure out, probably because they've been tweeked so much by the dev's, that they don't even know what they do.  But Ellestar's math is definately wrong because it is very possible to have more than the "maximum of 2 free shields for 1 bc spent." It is very clear to see that for Research, and it can also be seen with Production, though not as much so (probably because of the 3xPQ cap thing).
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#23
by Citizen Ellestar - 5/16/2003 4:41:52 AM
To modemboy
Well ok my math working only for low bonuses.
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#24
by Veteran Za H - 5/16/2003 5:30:02 PM
modemboy:
The point of my post is that there is no fixed ratio of how any type of bonus is split between free and paid portions. Instead, this ratio increases as your overall bonus increases, and it might not even be capped at 100%. This means that you cannot use any formula based on the Encyclopedia to accurately predict production and research, since it is fundamentally incorrect.
I am aware that research spending does not suffer diminishing return penalties at high level. As noted before, I have been careful to avoid the 3xPQ break point when calculating production too.
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- i don't tested production bonuses that was at Encyclopedia. Morale, Taxes, PopGrowth etc. is still right. Now i know that i can't trust developers. 
FreeBonusModifier*Bonus)/(1+NonFreeBonusModifier*Bonus), 
