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What am I doing wrong? (or How I Learned to Stop Whoring and Grow Econ)
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by Citizen Xentropy - 8/15/2003 4:00:59 PM
I must be doing something wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am able to win games, fairly easily in fact, but every time I win it's due to pure cheesy tactics which take advantage of weaknesses in the AI. This doesn't make for a very satisfying win for me, as I'd prefer multiplayer to begin with, and only decided to play this game because everyone talked about how great the AI was.
Well, it's not. I'm able to walk over them, especially in diplomatic situations.
Here's the gist of my problem. (I'll describe the situation when I *don't* take advantage of poor AI.) My planets never produce fast enough for my taste. Even with every +production social and tens of billions of people, production feels absolutely stagnant. A big reason is probably the fact I can never afford to crank my total spending above 40-50% or so due to lack of funds. Even with every +econ social (at least, the ones that actually increase your econ more than you lose maintaining them, which is like two) my planets are consistently spending more than they bring in, and trade only makes up for a minority of the difference. The only planet I ever have that "does anything" is the planet I build both Manuf Cap and Hyp Manuf on, and of course with +375% that planet actually produces.
So, I don't have enough econ *nor* production to do anything but research technologies I never really get to use myself because of my poor econ and prod. That's where the taking advantage of the AI comes in. The diplomatic AI is willing to spend rediculous amounts of money on worthless techs. So I extort gobs of money from them *per turn* for very long periods of time. This results in their going bankrupt and their OWN spending grinding to a halt. What this means is I can even give them good techs and suddenly *they* never get to use them due to *their* poor econ and prod. Meanwhile, I crank my spending up to 100% and start using the techs I've had all along (plus a few I traded from them), and immediately they don't stand a chance. As soon as their coffers get back in the black, I trade them a new "wave" of techs to keep them in the red for another 50 turns, and so forth.
This just feels *wrong*, since obviously it's the only thing winning my games for me. So thus I ask my subject question. What am I doing wrong? How can I get my economy and manufacturing going at more than a snail's pace *without* "tech whoring"? All that would be needed is a fix for the diplo AI to *not* trade itself into debt and I'd lose every game I play. (Is this really difficult? if (extortion > income) refuseDeal() ; )
I've tried spending my racial points on +econ and +prod and that didn't help at all. So I went back to max +tech, creativity, and +PQ, giving me more techs to whore off to keep my economy above ground. Anytime I try to play *without* trades like this, I fall quickly behind and then resort to those broken trades as soon as an alien declares a war on me I don't stand a chance of winning and suddenly, poof, my production flies through the roof, the alien backpedals, sues for peace, and then THEIR cash is all mine, too, as I hand them a bunch of tech that overextends them such that they can never use any of it anyway. Ad infinitum. Not much of a game because of that, really.
I've already read most of the threads here and in general and didn't really see anything helpful. "Build all the Plants," they say. All both of them? All they do is take my production from laughable to pathetic--ooooh, I can build the next project in 40 turns instead of 50!--and put me in debt while they do it due to extreme maintenance costs. And before you ask, yes, I only colonize 15+--generally, due to my problem, I even avoid 15's until my second colonization wave, and having every planet 22+ with upgrades makes no difference. One thing I don't know is how people get the 50+ PQ they talk about...I've never seen a random event that affects PQ and even with the +7% pick I can't think of a way to get above the mid-to-upper 20's--or mid 30's with a Gaian.
So, with that in mind, any suggestions are VERY welcome. Thanks in advance.
   
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I'm not an authority on this subject, by any means, but I'm going to take a crack at this.
First, tech whoring. Some love it, some hate it. But in this game, it's almost a necessity, especially at the "middle" difficulty levels. If you play at crippling or masochistic, I think nobody will take your techs, so that will pretty much take care of that! I will admit my first game has been the only game I didn't tech whore, and that was because I didn't know how to do it. Economically speaking, this game is extremely difficult to master. My only solution has been to build starbases on every econ resource I find and send as many freighters out for trade as I can. This will unfortunately still leave a deficit. So, the tech whoring begins. To alleviate making the game seem cheesy, I only tech whore the minors (well...most of the time  ). This leaves the majors to continue to be players. How to make more money? Haven't a clue, except to tech whore and build up trade as much as possible. Did I mention trade starbases? I don't think so, but they are important to me to. One of those babies in a sector that is trading will pump up the BC's.
Hmmm...probably not the answer you were really looking for, but it's all I've got. The high PQs are due to the worm colonization event stacking. It's a little too cheesy for me to do, so someone else may have to tell you about that.
Anyway, sorry you're a little disappointed in the game. I'm enjoying it, but I'm sure it isn't for everyone.
         
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I had the same problems as you with economy. I am not an expert player so there will probably be better advice - but I have found two things helped me:
1. Trade Routes. Create as many as you are allowed. I usually make one fairly close by just to get some cash coming in fast, and then create more further away (more valuable). This also helps keepthe AI off your backs a little bit as they see you as a valuable trade partner - unless you are so weak, miltarily that you look like an easy target to them.
If you can create a trade route in a sector that is straight up or along (ie not diagonal). The trade ship will go in a straight line and you can build trade enhancing starbases along the way. I am usually too lazy to do this so I pick my highest PQ planet and start routes from there. I amke that my Economic Capitol and build one or two starbases there with full trade modules.
Second is only build what you need on each planet. Alot of it is crap depending on where the planet is. Eg - Culture Enhancing (or resisting) buildings deep within your Civ are pointless. Only build ship yards etc on planets where you will build ships. etc...
The only things I build on every planet at least at the start are Soil Enhancers, Habitat Improvement, Fusion Plant and Bank. I leave Economic Exchange until I have decent production or ninthg to build. (Maybe also Manufacturing Plant). Once the money starts to roll in then I add Research Labs etc.
Also if you have too many expensive ships than this really drags your economy down. Not enough and you'll get attacked though!
Like I said, more seasoned players can give you better tips, but the above has worked for me on Crippling - usually without economy resources.
    
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Like jeff said above, the key is what you build on each planet. Most of the social improvements are totally useless. Stick to the following:
Soil Enhancement
Habitat Improvement
Terraforming
Anti-Matter Power Plant
Banking Center
Economic Exchange
Stock Market
Teleporters
Stadium
Research Lab
Neural Network
Galactic Research Center
Research Center
On Major Production Places (in addition to above):
Fusion Power Plant
Manufactoring Center
Shipyard
Starship Foundry
For Places with Moral Trouble:
build every trade good for moral possible
Entertainment Network
Harmony Generator
Multimedia Center (this one is debatable, because of only +15%, DO NOT get virtual reality, it is not worth the 5 maint. cost)
As you can see, most of these buildings
a) give you enhanced economy, or b) increased research
Trade is your friend. Try researching techs that give bonuses to trade(i.e. intersteller marketing). Try and rush for the galactic stock exchange as well, it will boost your economy civilization wide by +33%. This should help keep your cashflow more positive, letting you put more money into production.
Also, starbases are a big help. Once you get phase 3 factories and the massive scaling center, your starbases will boost production by a lot. And the bonuses stack, so in your major production areas you can build multiple starbases (in non production areas i build 1 fully upgraded to help pump out constructors, in major production places i build 3). Also build trading posts in sectors where a trade route passes through if possible, it will help bring you more money. Don't colonize sub 14 planets, even 14 should only be done if absolutely necessary.
Edit: Forgot about military stuff:
Sell old useless military equip that you will not use, the maint. costs will hurt your cashflow. In fact, if you can get to dreadnaught tech, you can sell your entire military and replace it with anti-matter missles to boost your military rating. I use anti matter missles to help pump up the military rating to avoid wars with the AI, then use preemptive strikes against them (I believe others refer to them as alpha-strikes). Pre-emptive strikes are good, cause I can usually nab 3/4 of the AI's worlds in 1 turn, and then i can get a peace treaty (with all my anti matter missles i have an insane military rating, usually 350+) and demand the rest of their worlds.
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The trade strategy I use is to colonize a planet in the same sector with a minor I want to help (preferably Alexians or Carinoids). Then I build all my freighters there and send them all to the same minor. Since your trade ships are always in the same sector, you can build a few starbases with trade bonuses. Even though the trade route is short, with all the bonuses stacked, it's worth more money. And it's all going to your best pal, in a well-defended sector. That way he also has more money to give you for your tech whoring.
 
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I would disagree with the above post: you should definitely build an entertainment network and a few other cheap morale boosters as well. Morale->more people->more tax income. I also would not build the research centers, and I do build the Anti-matter plants. Gengsta had an excellent post on this subject in this forum.
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i told him to build as many moral boosters as possible, save 1: the virtual reality center... maybe my post isnt clear, but i thought i said build every moral thing on planets with low moral possible (save virtual reality center)....
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| I would disagree with the above post: you should definitely build an entertainment network and a few other cheap morale boosters as well |
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Does it pay anything for those planets already pegged at 100% morale though? I tend to build Ent Network for the lower class planets only for starters. Our PQ21's and above will get it usually much later when their higher pop makes them drop behind and exhibit those unpleasant signs of discomfort (      ). Ent Network and the other morale enhancers get them quickly restore things back to normal (       )
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| The trade strategy I use is to colonize a planet in the same sector with a minor I want to help (preferably Alexians or Carinoids). Then I build all my freighters there and send them all to the same minor. Since your trade ships are always in the same sector, you can build a few starbases with trade bonuses. Even though the trade route is short, with all the bonuses stacked, it's worth more money. And it's all going to your best pal, in a well-defended sector. That way he also has more money to give you for your tech whoring. |
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That's a good strat, Damon! Haven't thought of that.
I would recommend the Caris over the Alexians. The Alexians flip too quickly so you have to booster them with cultural SBs.
 
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Black Shade: I interpreted "morale trouble" to mean low morale, like below 50. I guess you probably meant "morale that isn't 100." If so we agree.
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yup... i put my moral buildings in a seperate gov unless im on huge/gigantic maps where the micro management is too much. As soon as a planet drops below 100% moral, i switch the gov the planet is working under(unless it is working on a wonder/trade good) to the moral governor.
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Well, I haven't heard anyone mention the tax rate, so I will. I play on humongous maps, and trading tends to occur later and represent a much lower proportion of my total revenue. I play painful, and I find I can't use tech whoring as a crutch, even with diplo translators and superior diplo tech.
Sure, if your morale is at 100% at the current tax level, building an entertainment center doesn't help boost morale. But it does let you raise the tax rate. I tend to peg my tax rate to Earth's morale level (unless there's a better planet immediately available that I ship pop to and it becomes the de facto capital) at the beginning, and then to a nucleus of my best PQ planets where I produce colony ships and want high morale. After a few PQ and entertainment enhancements, I can usually keep my tax rate in the mid-fifties or so.
Taking +econ as a race trait and acquiring econ resources as well as building the econ wonders makes sure I get plenty of tax income.
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I've found that on gigantic maps, and crippling difficulty, whoring is still enough to fund your initial econ expansion. The real secret to gigantic maps, though, is anything which has an empire-wide bonus. When you have 150 colonies, the cost of building a given improvement on each is enourmous. On the other hand, the cost of a constructor which gives a 5-10% economy-wide morale, econ, or tech bonus, amounts to only 1-2bc per planet.
The upshot is that only a very few improvements should be built. The bulk of investment should go into constructors and star bases. By the time you run out of opportunities to use constructors constructively, you'll have more money than you can spend, and be in cultural control of most of the map.
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Interesting observations, oPseudonym.
I'm used to building a lot of improvements (except the obvious duds) in all my planets because I just use a single governor.
What are the very few improvements that you feel one should build on a Gigantic?
ps. If you are looking to empire, do consider the Fellowship.
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#15
by Citizen Timlagor - 10/18/2003 4:09:00 PM
This last post kinda makes the point that I think is your big problem. YOU DO NOT NEED MORE PRODUCTION POINTS. What you want it to be able to have a few planets really pumping out the production (like your capital) while everything else pootles along with enough production to build constructors/transporters and the odd other thing.
The problem you described wasn't a lack of production capacity just a lack of money -if your spending is below 100%, you are not using all your production capacity.
I run two Governors. ONe for 20+ PQ and one for 19-. The 19- doesn't have any of the +prod Socials (well maybe a power plant or two) and gets the +econ ones early.
Make sure you grab the +Econ and +Morale Trade Goods and Wonders and keep them to yourself. I don't know about other people but I am very reluctant to share my trade goods -AIs will pay a lot for them sure but they will give me an advantage every turn if I don't share.
Also NB 33% of prod bonuses is free on-planet but 50% from Starbases (I think those numbers are right..)
Finally check your government. You get more money for the later governments and also more prod. I think (because your balance goes down when you change but your spending shoots up).
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