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Maso strategy with no military.
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15-30 minutes? Gad! On my laptop, it can take 15 minutes just to initialize a game! 
      
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Having finished my vacation at "Painful" and slumming at "Beginner" (wrapping up my 1.10 games), I've upgraded to 1.12 and I'm back to "Maso" where I belong (some would say in real life). My first Maso win was along the lines described by Ray with Tiny/Rare and a frigate rush. This time I thought I'd try...
| How to be a Wombat of Influence |
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I thought I was doing pretty good. Had six good planets in only 3 systems, with a couple of PQ13s waiting for terraforming. The Drengin were #1, but I had two of my trade routes going to them and three of theirs coming to me, and I was regularly greasing their large palms with small amounts of IP (1 click to the right of 1IP). As I was building my first round of infrastructure, the Drengin demanded 850bc, so I paid up. "OUT OF WAR AT ALL COST" yes, yes. Soon they asked for 700bc or so. "Yessir!" I couldn't give them any tech because they were the research leaders. So pretty soon they asked for my system with three of my six planets. That I could not do...so they instantly declared war (so much for "three strikes and you're out"). I tried to bribe the Altarians (#2 military) to attack the Drengin, or even to bribe the Drengin to attack the Altarians, but all I have won't give the green. Anyway, I think I'm going to become a human skin roll in a Drengin sushi bar.
Maybe the Wombat Plan doesn't work (as is) under 1.12. Maybe I should have built warships earlier; maybe I should have been giving (say) 100ip instead of 3-6ip. I have an autosave from a few turns before the declaration of war; I could try reloading that and trying one or both of those options. Thoughts?
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The 1 IP bug was fixed under 1.12 - that's probably why it didnt work! Gifting IPs (any amount) isn't going to save you at maso under 1.12. The plan still works, though, if you gift techs or money instead. You'll have to concentrate on researching techs that the AIs dont (typically, yellow and green techs) and just GIVING them one every now and again to ensure good relations. Alternatively, you can give cash gifts (usually you need at least 500BC as a gift to achieve a diplomatic status change, eg from Cool to Neutral).
I have also heard of other players building "cheap" military strength by making lots of AMMs (I dont do this, though) - having decent military strength also means the AIs tend to leave you alone.
Hope this helps! 
      
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MARSUPIAL MENTEE MANGLED
As the last Terran was dragged to the Death Furnace he screamed something incomprehensible: “Where did Wombatism go Wrong?” The screams cut off abruptly, and the Lombard League was no more than a grease spot on the floor of galactic history.
I didn’t pull that one out. I was able to propitiate the aliens for a while, but fell victim to the dreaded Runaway Drengin Superpower. I followed the plan Wombat Plan through Cultural Maximizing and on through Nano-Freq Electronics…only six lines short of “This is the point at which you have the win in clear sight.” So that was the point the Drengin announced that they would take care of us before we took care of them—regrettably good timing.
I hoped to grab a Drengin planet before they grabbed any of mine, and then to get favorable terms to help me catch up on military techs. There was a nearby undefended planet (recently taken from the Carinoids) and I launched my transports toward it. Meanwhile I traded for a Torian combat transport and sent it (along with a bait escort) toward the nearest defended Drengin world.
At this point I learned that in v1.12 the Drengin defended each world with an orbiting dreadnought, and that in v1.12 the defender can’t be lured out of orbit. Just after that point one of many roaming Drengin dreadnoughts relieved me of both the escort and the CT…and then the tantalizing ex-Carinoid planet sprouted a Dreadnought ONE TURN before I could invade. Since I didn’t even have battleship tech, it was rapidly downhill from there. I managed to build one Culture Palace during a brief Peace Treaty, promptly broken (along with the Palace). When the Avatars showed up it was a mercy killing. My only satisfaction was being the last to fall, leaving the entire galaxy red.
I failed because I was unable to comply with the maxim YOU MUST STAY OUT OF WAR. I tried. Lots of bribes of tech, triple-digit IP, defenders and corvettes. I bribed the Altarians to attack the Drengin (which simply renewed their on-and-off war). In fact the Drengin were at war with all four majors, so all trade was with me…and they attacked me as soon as they made peace with one other major.
I don’t know if I could have avoided this earlier in the game. I had the Altarians and the Arceans as my immediate neighbors, with the Drengin beyond, so I followed the Neutral path. This worked poorly: for example at one point just before the war, both the Altarians AND the Drengin were Hostile. O Joy, O Bliss! If anyone cares to take a shot at this one, I have a variety of saved positions from my fiasco.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends! Once more! -- HtL
p.s. WW: Thanks for the suggestions. It's possible that the 1 IP bug was over-fixed. It seems to me that larger amounts of IP (proportional to those available) should be effective sometimes, but maybe this is just payback for prior abuses. Indeed I concentrated on the green and the yellow techs, so occasionally I had a tech I could give to the tech-leading Drengin and Altarians. I also bundled 111 bc along with 111 IP as gifts, and also lots of small warships. After my reload I delayed the war by building cheap military strength by making lots of corvettes. I never got as far as Dreadnoughts (except from the Torian world that surrendered to me), so I could never build AMMs, and by the time I could start researching dreads, the Drengin had Avatars. The handwriting was on the skin.
So, I'll try again. This time, no IP gifts at all. Are you still getting by with NO military? Anyway, it was a learning experience (I can tell because it hurts). Thanks for the thought-provoking ideas! -- HtL
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Another way to stay out of war is to start the AI's of to war against each other and thereby seeking to weaken stronger AI's.
It works like a charm for me.
   
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| I'd say that following a rigid plan probably dooms you in some situations where the map just doesn't favor you. |
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Indeed it would! I treat any strat recommendations as guidelines or templates on which to improvise to meet conditions. This is not like the dreaded "build orders" of games like Age of Empires. I don't think this was a "doomed from the start" position; I think I screwed up along the way, probably wasting too much time and resources on distractions, meaning things that weren't useful enough in these conditions.
I'll forward you a couple of saved positions; I'm on the wrong computer right now. It may be a few days.
| Another way to stay out of war is to start the AI's of to war against each other and thereby seeking to weaken stronger AI's. |
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Agreed, but the Drengin were almost continuously at war. Just before they attacked me, they were at war with every other AI...then made peace with one or two and promptly attacked me. At that point, everything I had (literally) was not enough to induce the #2 Altarians to attack them or enough to make the Drengin attack the Altarians. -- HtL
[Message Edited]
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Hermann - mate, I'm feeling responsible! I still win with no military, and as you say you shouldn't follow any plan rigidly, but a few more observations:
1. Sometimes, if an AI gets a flying start (ie lots of rich planets in one sector) they will come for you no matter what. I have those games too, and have to just abandon them.
2. You are right to go green and yellow techs to develop trading bait for the AIs.
3. Aaberg's point is valid - DO talk the AIs into warring with each other; I often find my diplo relations go up when this happens anyway.
4. Inducing a diplomatic state change: trade a tech ( a decent one; dont expect to get a state change mid game by giving them "Sensors"). Pay money - at least 500bc to get a state change mid game, and late game it will take 1000bc. If you have trade goods, gifting these often had a good impact too (and maybe lasts longer than a cash gift). I dont find gifting IP of ANY amount works to induce a state change now. The other thing is - you'll need to get Diplo Trans or course, but it helps GREATLY to have an existing trade route with the AI you're trying to change.
Good luck!
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| Hermann - mate, I'm feeling responsible! |
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Ah, the horror! To be responsible for the extermination of the human race!
Anyway, I am in the process of trying again. Thanks to all for the suggestions and encouragement. It's quite possible that my situation was simply a runaway Drengin superpower. Vincible will be able to tell us (and this constitutes a bump). -- HtL
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Hail to the Untamed Marsupial!
This time I got it right! In my second attempt at a pure-influence win I had an excellent starting position (which would have been ideal for the One-Sector Challenge too). There were two systems and four planets in my starting sector, and that's all I had until the culture tide began to flow. My sector was in the middle of the west border of the map. The Drengin were right next door with four systems and five or six planets, with the Altarian superpower beyond them with six or seven systems and eight or nine planets. The Yor had two systems in one corner, the Arceans three in another corner, and the Torians only one, way down at the southern map edge.
So of course I had to make nice to the Drengin and the Altarians, and (as usual) I kept my alignment neutral until near the end to try to not alienate (ahem) either of the Big Boys. Fairly frequent gifts of tech and of cash did the trick. No one ever went "hostile" on me, though I saw "wary" a few times.
My cash flow got very tight as I was researching from CMax to Cultural Conquest. Tribute dried up once the Alexians were devoured, and my trade revenue was never very high (and the auxiliary routes kept getting shot up). It was still nice at the point where I had routes to every major and every major was Warm (or better) at the same time.
Cash flow got even worse as the culture flipping spread, until I dismantled a lot of expensive alien improvements. It was a bit alarming to see shoals of avatars swimming by my culture starbases, with combat and explosions in all quadrants. I felt a bit like the Netherlands during a Franco-German war, hoping to trade and to be left alone.
At the very end I did have a military, which consisted of ships that were mostly complete when the world flipped to me, but I was barely a blip on the military graph. I also gave away some Avatars to keep the Arceans alive a bit longer...and it was alarming to watch one of them get blown away by a single salvo from a Drengin warship.
So my thanks to Wild Wombat (and the rest of you). My modest goal was to get into the top 250 and this game did the trick. Of course I'd better post something soon if I want to *stay* in the top 250 for a while. Hopefully that will be my OSC game...and then I'm foolishly tempted to try one maso gigantic game. It will probably take me a month to finish... -- HtL
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Congrats and well played!! 
That phenomenon of taking over a world that is building an Avatar can be quite useful, as you usually dont have that tech and the AIs are loathe to trade it. My policy is usually to let the planet complete it, because the other thing you need depending on the situation is PROTECTION for all those nice palaces - which can be squished REAL quick by an errant space snake or pirates that pop up at the wrong time. I have had the heartbreak of not being able to protect my palaces from such an event on the brink of victory, grrr....
Anyway - you beat maso!!!
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Thanks, WW. That's why I allowed construction to finish on those worlds. After all, I didn't *start* building those warships, so they don't count, right? This was my second maso win. The first was tiny, rare, using a frigate rush similar to Ray's posting (and that one had two AI as mere Geniuses).
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#41
by Veteran vincible - 12/13/2003 5:08:08 PM
Hermann, sorry I took so long. But I finally got a chance to play your game. I pulled out a victory from your save game "tightrope." I did not look at the
other save game.
In general, I don't think this was a map where a pacifistic strategy was a good idea. You had lots of weak neighbors and a runaway superpower on the far side of the map. I think the strategy to go with was to take over those weak neighbors as quickly as possible, so that you had enough planets to deter the Drengin onslaught and to let you keep up in tech. I invaded the Carionids, Torians, and Arceans fairly quickly. The Yor and Alexians followed soon after. I hardly had to build any ships, either--none were in any shape to resist.
The basic strategy through this game was to use tech trading to keep up with the Drengin (and occasionally bribe them to make them happy), support the Altarians by giving them techs, since they were the only AI even remotely competitive with the Drengin, and take over everyone else's empire. I can send you save games at various points so you can see what I was doing, in more detail than I could write here.
The result of this was that by 2188 I had conquered everyone but the Altarians and Drengin, who were at war. I built up the influence resources to 68%, built the remaining influence wonders and trade goods and Altarian and Drengin worlds started flipping to me spontaneously. I sped this up with a Party Palace or two, and cultural victory followed quite soon, or at least, it would have followed if the Fundamentalists hadn't wiped out the remaining two Drengin worlds a few turns before the cultural victory deadline (which let me win militarily! yay!)
I have some specific comments for you, and some comments about the Wombat strategy in general. First, for you:
I wouldn't spend on espionage in the early game. That money is probably better used in production or research. You shouldn't spend money that way until trade picks up and money starts to flow in.
Remember to change your government type when your research a new government! It makes a big difference to your production.
If no one else gets them, Diplomatic translators should be your top priority in the early game. It makes appeasing the big powers much easier. I typically go for Diplomatic Translators as soon as my Manufacturing Capital is built. Aphrodesiac should also be a high priority item.
Get your economy rolling more quickly. I would put Economic Exchange higher in the build queue. When looking for early game techs, I would go for Interstellar Capitalism, which gives the wonderful Stock Market.
Okay, now comments about the Wombat strategy in general. (This really turned into more of a discussion of how I handle the early game.)
Especially on maso, I think it's more efficient to build the improvements as they come available, rather than finishing up all the the early techs before starting the improvements. That way, you get the economic and morale benefit of (say) soil enhancement right away, rather than having to wait until a year or two later when you've finished all the researching. Having the infrastructure early also means that you will research faster! And it means that you can trade with the AIs and let them do some of your research for you, which gets you started on the good stuff earlier.
My own opening typically will look something like this:
Soil enhancement
Entertainment
Comm theory
Universal Translator
Industrial theory
Nano-metal composition
Nano-metal composition is in my opinion the key early game tech. It's valued really highly by the AIs, which is nice. Even more importantly, it's needed to build the Industrial Capital. If you build that quickly enough, you're on track to get a good share of the early game wonders. I can usually trade Nano-metal for all the other techs in Wombat's list.
Trade techs around
Med theory
Basic Environment
Habitat improvement
Trade techs around
On best world: build Industrial capital, then focus on trade good and wonder production
Everywhere else: focus on economic and morale improvements. When deciding what to research, I focus on techs that yield good improvements.
I differ from Wild in that I usually, though not always, skip industrial improvements on the non-core worlds until later, when my economy has improved to the point where I've got excess cash. I'm willing to go to war, but I try very hard not to get into wars unless I'm sure I'll win. Certainly I will typically try to get the Economic Exchange before the manufacturing center, and I might not build the Fusion Power Plant at all. Indeed, in the early game I don't want my worlds building too quickly--I want to be able to spend at 100% to get wonders as fast as possible.
I can't give a walkthrough after this point, since what I do here really depends on the game situation, my own starting picks, and even my mood. But I think this gets me off to a good start.
  
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V: Thanks for the feedback.
I guess I didn't recognize that this was a poor map for (persisting in) a pacifistic approach. I might have thought that having weak neighbors was *better* for that approach...but not if those neighbors become cat food for a Big Tiger.
Early espionage: I don't know how early I need to start (or rather, how much investment I need to have accumulated by various stages of the game) to avoid assasinations and whatnot. I usually start early and small...having had a few sudden wars with allies.
I don't forget to change governments when I research the tech...but I often forget to change when I *trade* for the tech. This seems to be one of my favorite mistakes.
I always try to get the DTs (darn that tequila, anyhow!) but in many--if not most--of my maso games, somebody picks them off incredibly early...certainly long before completion of the Industrial Capital in the sequence you outlined. Aphro is my #2 prio TG...typically followed by one of the morale enhancers, because usually my tax rate is getting pitiful at about that time.
Economic Exchange takes so long to build that I tend to delay it until I have fairly substantial manufacturing capability...or at least I agonize somewhat deciding when (or if) to start it. For example, I'd like to have that economic boost on my primary TG/wonder planet, but I hate to wait for it. OTOH, I don't tend to think of Interstellar Capitalism as an early game tech. I suppose that comes from games that end shortly after dreadnoughts become available. [Yes, I love the Stock Market in GalCiv!]
In my most recent games I've been putting down Soil before researching Comm & UT. One (perhaps spurious) benefit of the big research push is having more techs available to trade or to give...but I suppose that also means that many of them will already have been researched by the aliens, negating any trade value.
When I only have a few worlds (up to four), I tend to think of all of them as core worlds. I guess I overemphasize Fusion, but I'm usually able to keep spending at 100% (except in situations where even the Alexians won't trade cash). Agreed that it's best to avoid wars that you might lose!!
So here's a question: what do you build on your primary production planet before starting on trade goods and wonders? I usually build Soil, Banking, Habitat, Mfg, Fusion, Econ Capital, and Mfg Capital, then I waffle about Econ Exchange. Oh, and I build Entertainment when my morale starts down...which is often *during* the push for the early TGs.
Another question: where do you put the stock exchange wonder in your priority list? I usually allocate it to my #2 production world, and get it about half the time.
Anyway, thanks again, and I look forward to seeing those saved games. -- HtL
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#43
by Veteran vincible - 12/15/2003 4:46:12 PM
I'll send them to you tonight.
About espionage: I've never seen a war started by lack of espionage until at least ten years into the game. I think Stardock gives you a "grace period" on that kind of event.
| I often forget to change when I *trade* for the tech |
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I do that too! It's really annoying.
I only commented on Diplomatic Translators because they were still available in the game I loaded.
| Economic Exchange takes so long to build that I tend to delay it until I have fairly substantial manufacturing capability...or at least I agonize somewhat deciding when (or if) to start it. For example, I'd like to have that economic boost on my primary TG/wonder planet, but I hate to wait for it. |
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I guess my feeling is that it's a good way to spend social production while your primary planet is producing wonders and TGs. It's really not a bad thing that it takes so long, since you'll be spending the money on social improvements anyway.
| what do you build on your primary production planet before starting on trade goods and wonders |
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Usually just soil enhancement, habitat improvement, entertainment network, and Industrial Capital. I throw in Fusion Power Plant when it becomes available, and manufacturing center when convenient. This planet ends up with nothing but wonders/TGs, production enhancers, and morale improvements.
Usually I go for Galactic Stock Exchange right after Diplomatic Translators.
On other worlds, I usually try to maximizine income for the first few years, with a queue that looks something like (I'm doing this from memory so I may miss something):
Soil
Habitat
Entertainment
Banking Center
Economic exchange
Multimedia center
Research lab
Stock Market
and only at this point do I start putting down the production enhancers.
The advantage of this is that my periphery worlds spend less money, so I can go at 100% spending and keep my wonder production on the primary world up.
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| I do that too! It's really annoying. |
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Pity there isn't a prompt offering to change governments when you trade for them as there is when you research them.
I only commented on Diplomatic Translators because they were still available in the game I loaded.
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When I played it, I think I tried for DT but a minor snapped them up before I finished research...probably I built too many things at the primary planet before starting on trade goods.
| since you'll be spending the money on social improvements anyway. |
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Even after quite a number of games now, I *still* haven't internalized the cost of building nothing. Habits from Civ2/CTP2/etc. die hard. Also, since the investment is "kept for later" I can switch projects (or shut off social spending) for something more urgent and switch back; I can look at it as makework that will eventually be useful.
The advantage of this is that my periphery worlds spend less money, so I can go at 100% spending and keep my wonder production on the primary world up.
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...and I'm still overbuilding, too! Given these bad habits I'm fortunate to win most of my maso games, but you're showing me more clearly why I lost that one. Maybe I'll take that position myself to try to do better...but more likely I should try to apply my lessons under new circumstances. -- HtL
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| what do you build on your primary production planet before starting on trade goods and wondersUsually just soil enhancement, habitat improvement, entertainment network, and Industrial Capital. I throw in Fusion Power Plant when it becomes available, and manufacturing center when convenient. This planet ends up with nothing but wonders/TGs, production enhancers, and morale improvements. |
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Thanks again for sending those files and sharing your advice...so to thank you I have a few more questions.
You write that you build Fusion when it becomes available and Mfg Center when convenient. I find I always build Fusion there ASAP to be able to build Manufacturing Capital and Mfg Center and THEN I build wonders and trade goods. However, I also build Economic Capital on that world. It sounds like I'm building too many things before starting on TG and Wonders, but the building seems so slow without them...and I'm eager to get back to research.
So the specific question is "Where and when do you build your Econ Capital?" -- HtL
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| I usually end up putting the econ capital on the second best production world |
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I've taken to building it on the second-best econ world...which of course is usually the second-best production world. Seems fairly effective. Thanks!
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Hermann - never waste money. I will set even my lesser planets to building some wonder or other when their main build queue is complete, and it is surprising how often your 4th or 5th best planet can deliver Grav Acc or something else during the game. I hadn't thought of deliberately building the econ capital elsewhere, as I'm often racing the AIs to a key wonder, so I still like to pile up all the juicy +prod stuff on my best PQ planet. When you have planets going through a build queue, they will often complete the queue at different times - I just slot any buildable wonder/TG into that planet's queue (even if I dont want it) and keep going. Either I get lucky and the lesser planet actually completes it, or I trade techs that allows a new structure that I want built - so I just switch across (and hopefully I'm transferring the money already spent into the new structure to be built).
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| Hermann - never waste money. |
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You could have told me that *before* my Christmas shopping! 
In most strats that I play I come to a point which I think of as the transition from the "opening" to the "early game." At that moment I've completed the Manufacturing Capital on my #1 world, and a whole bunch of TGs and wonders are available...along with the Econ Capital. I used to build the Econ Capital on the #1 world before starting to build TGs there. Just lately I'm building the Econ Capital on the #2 world (often in a multi-planet system relatively early in its growth), and I start on my highest-prio TG on the #1 world, and scatter the lower-prio items across the next several worlds in the production hierarchy (so typically I'll try for DT on the rare occasions when no one beat me to it, followed by the stock exchange wonder, with miscellaneous morale TGs at other worlds. I waffle between aphro and grav accel for the next-best world. Basically, the #1 world can complete two items in the time it takes the #2 or #3 world to complete one item. -- HtL
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